Taken Out of Context I Must Seem So Strange

Tracie: If you bring out a vibrator and a guy's ego is hurt by that, then he's retarded.
Moe: Or an toothbrush (laughs). An electric toothbrush.
Tracie: They make attachments for that, actually.
Lizz: There's a toothbrush?
Tracie: They make make attachments for the Oral B electric toothbrush, the Sonicare...
Moe: I have that one!
Tracie: I know!
Lizz: So you mean your toothbrush becomes your vibrator?
Tracie: Yeah, it actually... you know, the thing that bothers me about modern vibrators or whatever...
Lizz: Is that they become toothbrushes!
Tracie: No, 'cause like, I am strictly the Hitachi Magic Wand, there's no other thing that's better than that.
Lizz: So you're still a plug-in girl
Tracie: Yes. Well, because, you can't get any real power from, like... I need a chunkier ride.
Moe: You always say that.
Lizz: And do you have the attachments?
Moe: But I've got, just, like, the standard vibrator and it's fine.
Tracie: See, no, I can't, I can't.
Moe: It also doesn't make as much noise as my frickin' toothbrush.
Tracie: Oh, I live alone, so...
Lizz: Maybe you just have to, like oil it up a little. But in an age where, you know, where you're focusing on sexual freedom, it's just, it's not always safe. It's not always safe to be with strange men, it's not always safe to just have a free, 100% total sexual life. How do you address that? Do you address it?
Moe: I don't really get out that much, enough to really even care about that problem.
Tracie: I mean, people are always saying that it's not safe to go home with strange men, blah blah blah...
Moe: Like, what's going to happen?
Tracie: .... Mr. Goodbar or whatever.
Lizz: You could get raped.
Tracie: But I wouldn't.
Moe: That's happened, too, but you live through that, you know.
Lizz: Sometimes you don't.
Moe: I mean, that's true if they have weapons.
Tracie: But when I bring someone home, I want to fuck them, I'm not going to bring someone home and be like, "No, not tonight."

Lizz: That's not how rape works.
Moe: You're not going to ask for it.
Lizz: Wait, wait, hold on a second, that's just not how rape works, though. If you bring a guy home and want to fuck him and he goes, "Guess what, I'm a psycho and now that I'm licking your face I want to kill you."
Tracie: I know, but I live in Williamsburg, and there's only pussies in Williamsburg.
Lizz: What the fuck?
Tracie: There's aren't very assertive men there. [audience laughs] And everyone I fuck is a pussy.
Moe: Also, the thing about the rapists of our generation, it's that they're not very assertive men but that they all use drugs, they all have some sort of drugs that they use on you. So, it's good when you start to feel like -- and I don't know if this has happened to me or if I just drink to much -- but there are times when you feel like "Wow, I'm really woozy, I need to go home." I sort of feel like I'm a connoisseur...
Lizz: Of date rape drugs?
Moe: No, of hearing these stories. It's really hard to prosecute them. So you should try to avoid them at all costs, but, you know, I don't know. It's a very strange, strange line.
Tracie: I paid someone to rape me once.
Moe: Oh, right, she did that.
[Audience member]: Tell that story.
Moe: It sounded like a good story.
Lizz: First off, you can't pay someone to rape you...
Moe: Yeah, yeah that's true.
Lizz: ... you were a willing accomplice. You have said "Rape me now"
Tracie: I know, it was kind of weird.
Lizz: But your audience, you can saying "Living in Williamsburg, bah bah bah bah" but your audience is global. And in some places -- I don't even buy your Williamsburg thing, I think it's hilarious that you would say that -- but there are people who live in places where men aren't just... are horrible rapists and who prey on women who are trying to just be women that are sexual beings.
Tracie: I understand that that exists, but I really can't relate to it because I didn't start having sex until I was 17 and a half, and then I moved to New York when I was 18. And you would think that you'd encounter more rapists in this big city, but, I don't know, I haven't. I've always... I don't know if I attract, like, dudes that want to be dominated or something, or...
Moe: I attract rapists, so I can speak to this.
Tracie: I feel like that because I'm a feminist I have this issue where I just naturally dominate everybody and I kind of want that. But I had this fantasy where I wanted to be dominated. So I paid someone -- well, I didn't pay someone, I had a magazine pay for it -- so that I wouldn't have to pay for it.
Lizz: That is two steps removed from rape. You are so not being raped now, now Conde Nast is raping you. [laughs]. That's pretty funny.
Tracie: I mean, I know that women deal with that stuff in their life, but I honestly, I know that that happens, but never anything close to that has ever happened to me.
Lizz: But it's a reality of sexual freedom, and that's I guess what I'm trying to get at, because of this kind of fucked up reality of sexual freedom, do you feel an obligation of address it in a real way? To help women avoid situations where they can put themselves at risk?
Tracie: I am not Captain Save-A-Ho. [laughter] I feel like I can only really... The thing that I can do is I can just write... I only write what I know. That's what I do best. And the only thing that I can do is write about my experiences and if women can relate to that, then I feel like that's great and they... and we can all share those experiences. But I feel like in the same way that, like, Moe knows shit about China, I don't know shit about China. I wouldn't write about that. I don't know shit about rape, and so I don't really want to write about that because, like, in a way that I might be like "This is how you protect yourself," like, I've taken self-defense courses and stuff and that's never been something that I've had to encounter, so, I feel like I really write from my own experiences, and so that's really all I can go by. As far as writing about the truth and whatever.
Moe: I think that's an interesting point that you make because I've totally be "victimized" [air quotes hers] and I feel like I must kind of broadcast something. But the point is, I think that you were saying, what do you regret in terms of sexual experiences. And I guess I regret being date raped, but mostly, yeah, I regret most of the hours, days, years that I've spent being drunk. I really like alcohol, but it's kind of a waste of time. So I would tell people that. And otherwise, it seems like, in terms of bad sexual experiences that you have, the worst ones always seem to be in countries where sex is not accepted, or sex is ... that is the great thing about New York, I've never had any problems with anyone here. It's always these situations in which it's much more shameful.
Tracie: Where women are oppressed.
Moe: And you hear about crap like, I was talking over the weekend to this guy who's in Baghdad and he was helping this woman out of Basra, and in Iraq they do the thing, I guess I had heard this so many times before...
Lizz: In Iraq they do the thing? What does that mean?
Moe: They all have anal sex to preserve their virginity.
Lizz: Yes and then shred their bowels.
Moe: Because if you have... if you are accused of losing your virginity in Iraq, they will check you out. They are experts on this shit. It's insane. And this one girl ad this crush on a British soldier, she was 17, she had a crush on him. She told her best friend. And somehow it got out that she had lost her virginity to him, even though that was not true -- he didn't even know who she was. And her father killed her.
Lizz: Her father killed her. Honor killings.
Moe: Honor killing. So then her mother got mad about that and tried to leave and then she got assassinated within two weeks. So I'm talking to this women's rights organization in Basra because I can't even believe that, it's so hard to comprehend it. And she's like, "Well, it's better to be a temporary wife than a prostitute." And I was like, "What's a temporary wife?" Basically, like, in Iran this happens but it's more of a joke, but In Iraq you can marry somebody for like a day or like a week and have sex with them and then you get divorced and then it's ok, you're not as much of a whore then.
Lizz: So both people enter into the agreement knowing there'll be a divorce kind of thing?
Moe: Yeah, it's like, if you want to have a one-night stand with somebody, you get married.
Lizz: It's like their version of Vegas?
Moe: Yeah, exactly. But it's like, without.... And people get raped in Iraq constantly. It's true, rape is an instrument of war. That's where it happens. Where you have people who are sort of on the same level about what sex means -- which is not not much.
Lizz: But rape isn't about sex. So I think you're equating two different things. Rape is about power and it's about...
Moe: No, that's true.
Lizz: So the sexual proclivity of a society and equality has nothing to do with the rapists in the society. Like, I think that needs to be said.
Moe: No, no, no, I think that's true, but what I'm saying is that the societies in which sex is most fetishized, I guess, or that the societies where it's most repressed, seem to be the places where rape is a really big problem, maybe because it involves so much shame.
Lizz: But I think it might be a slippery slope to go down to talk about how much we know about rape, because it's one of the most underreported things because women don't. And in the United States it's really underreported. So we don't know how much rape is really going on here because people don't report it. And because date rape is so hard to prove, that I think women let a lot of it go by. And so, I think that that's just, for me, something.
Moe: That's totally true.
Tracie: I mean, I understand that it's a big problem and stuff and I'm not trying to undermine any of that, but at the same time I really feel like just because... I mean, I am really not trying to undermine it but just because I am a woman with a vagina I am not automatically classified as a potential rape victim. And I really feel like we have so much more of a shared culture beyond being victimized. And so I feel like, I don't know, the things that I try to write about, the things that I want to talk about, is more like, it's not so shitty to be a woman. And it's often shitty to be a woman, but not all the time. And there are things that are really great about being a girl that guys don't get to experience, and we share and no one else would be able to understand that.
Lizz: I completely agree with that.
Moe: Nancy Pelosi got called out a few... maybe last week for saying much the same thing. Which was just, like, "Yes, you know, sexism, I experience it all the time, but fuck it, I don't care." She didn't say "fuck it," but she should've. Obviously she should've.
Lizz: Implied.
Moe: And I have advantages being a woman, and I don't really even  care to talk about it. And that's one thing, after this campaign, I just got so, honestly, like, I just got so sick of talking about sexism. Because yes, obviously, people are sexist. But if someone is going to underestimate me because I'm a woman, or Tracie, or anyone I know, they're just retarded. No offense to the retards.
Lizz: Do you think that sexism played a role with Hillary?
Moe: No, I think that everything else.
Tracie: I don't actually.
Moe: No.
Lizz: I mean, I think the media was sexist. I think you can pinpoint the media and Chris Matthews because he's a shitbag...
Moe: Sure
Lizz: ...and I've said it before and I'll say it again that I think sexism is out there. That's the field. And I think that it was a false...
Moe: I don't think it was sexism that hurt her campaign, there was so much other stuff.
Tracie: I actually feel like yeah there was sexism, yeah there was racism, it just sort of equaled the playing ground to me. To be honest, I feel like that sort of they canceled each other out. I mean, they were both present but they were there and they both had to deal with that situation. But I really don't think that Hillary lost because of sexism. And I say that totally as a card-carrying feminist.
Lizz: Right.
Tracie: And I think that she lost for other reasons. And there could be other retarded reasons, too, like Joel Madden supports Obama or whatever.
Moe: I didn't know that!
Tracie: Yeah, he's really into him.
Moe: What about Nicole?
Tracie: They're a team.
Moe: Were they in the commercial?
Tracie: The will.i.am video?
Moe: I don't know, have they been in any commercials?
Tracie: They wore a T-shirt.
Moe: Ooh.
Tracie: To Coachella, I believe.
Moe: To Coachella? Well, that's public. That's official.
Lizz: I don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
________________

Q/A starts

Q: Do you consider yourselves feminists? Why or why not?
Tracie: Yes, totally.
Moe: Um, sure. I mean, yeah, now I guess. I guess so. I mean, I don't even know what it means. I mean, I'm a girl. I think that women are obviously better than men.
Tracie: That's it, sometimes I feel like like a female supremacist
Moe: I'm a female supremacist.
Lizz: So you're female supremacists.
Tracie: Sometimes I feel like that.
Moe: In a way, yeah. But I don't want to get that... I don't want to make any men out there thing "Well, I don't want to fuck that girl," because, obviously...
Lizz: Oh, trust me, you can say you're a feminist, they'll fuck a tree. If you think men are going to feel cock-blocked because you are a feminist.
Tracie: I think guys will have sex with whatever...
Moe: I'm not really a female supremacist.
Tracie: ... and it doesn't matter.
Moe: That's true, that's true.
Tracie: I feel like a lot of women don't identify with feminism because they are afraid of these different definitions that certain feminists apply to it and I don't think that people understand how much fluidity there is to that term and that it's not this monolithic thing that it means this and this and this and this. It really just means that both men and women are both human and that they're equal and that we can all have different... I actually liken it to Christianity in which there is one basic belief and a million different splinters.
Lizz: Yeah, that's a really good point.
Tracie: So, yeah, of course I identify as a feminist. I have my own beliefs that are totally different than what some other feminists and it's like, you know,
Lizz: Yeah, I think people and I think that's a problem and, yeah, i think it's sort of the loudest voice wins as this sort of overarching definition of what it means
Tracie: I don't really think... I mean, I am sort of influenced by Riot Grrrl and that kind of thing and they are all like, "We need action, we need unity" blah blah blah, and, like, yeah, sure, whatever, but, you know, we have the vote and we have that kind of shit, we do need...
Lizz: That money thing is a long way
Moe: Money, we need to make more money.
Lizz: Yeah.
Tracie: I do think that there are...
Moe: We also need the government to subsidize tampons, I mean, for God's sake.
Tracie: Yeah, for real, if guys got periods you know that shit would be subsidized.
Moe: Seriously!
Tracie: Not government cheese, government tampons!
Moe: And birth control.
Lizz: And breast cancer screenings. And that stuff.
Moe: Even though I don't really want it.
Lizz: Yeah, I know. It's true. Government-funded tampons, I'm all for it.
Moe: The world, it's not...
Lizz: Socialized medicine.
Moe: Yes, exactly! So I'm a socialist, actually.
Lizz: Ok, so you're a socialist female supremacist. I like it.
Moe: No, I'm actually more of a humanist. I wouldn't say I'm a female supremacist, there are some dudes who are cool, too. I don't want to give them short shrift because they're genetically maybe inferior in some ways.
Lizz: It's better that you don't repeat that you think they're genetically inferior part. That is more going to prevent you from getting laid then calling yourself a feminist.
Tracie: They've kind of been saying that forever, though, so...
Lizz: Well, they say that to get laid. They don't think they're inferior.
Tracie: Yeah, they think they're superior, exactly.
Lizz: And then we tune that out because they're not because they'll fuck anything. Anyone who fucks anything is not superior. If you have no choosiness about it. It's general rule of thumb. I'm not wrong.

Q: [Moe's WaPo article; Question about whether "old guard" feminists read Jezebel.]
Tracie: [Gloria Steinem] doesn't know what the Internet is, she's like a dinosaur.
Moe: Linda Hirshman...
Q: No, really have you heard from the old guard at all about the blog and, if so, what?
Lizz: She's a dinosaur that has allowed you to get up here and say what you're saying.
Moe: Well, Molly Johnfast [sp.?] is a fan, like, on behalf of her mom but...
Tracie: I totally respect Gloria Steinem, I have an autographed copy of Bust Magazine that I used to work at with Gloria Steinem on the cover, but she's a very older woman and I don't think she looks at the Internet because I know a woman who worked for her before and I don't think she has any idea what Jezebel is or any of that.
Moe: Well, the person I was rebutting in that thing was Linda Hirshman who's kind of like an old guard feminist and she wrote a book and then she wrote on Huffington Post rebutting me and her rebuttal of me was really retarded, if I may say so. She's like, "Yeah, the bloggers have an emotional response," and then she took... well, you know, whatever, she can do what she wants. She's very easy to rebut because she was like, "I'm a white middle-class feminist and I think that the white middle-class feminists need to look out for themselves and stop worrying about other groups." I just thought that was ridiculous.
Lizz: I don't know what that means. That's like whenever there are people from the HRC on the street and they're like, "Do you believe in gay rights?" And I'm like "Your organization doesn't have gay rights in the title." Like, if you're for gay rights that your organization should say gay rights in the title. And your for human rights and you voted for Canada to vote for the war and against women's issues and I hate that. Like identify for what you are. It bugs me. It's like you have to look outside yourself, you know, you're called the Human Rights Campaign and you're a gay rights organization and you don't have gay in the title, why don't you, it fucking freaks me out. I just think it's bizarre. Yeah, but, so, the old guard...
Moe: So, we haven't heard, I don't think we've heard a lot from the old guard, I've heard a little bit.
Tracie: I think it has to do with our medium, to be honest. I think it has to do with the fact that... I mean, my mom is 55 or something and she barely knows how to work the Internet.
Lizz: Grandma!
Tracie: She really doesn't...
Moe: My mom doesn't read it, doesn't want to read it, doesn't want to know.
Lizz: But they know it exists. My mom's 86 and she's on the Internet. Sadly, she just forwards me emails from other old people, but... She is on the Internet.
Tracie: My mom forwards emails and stuff but she doesn't... she'll look at Jezebel because she knows that address, that I work there and stuff, but she doesn't know how to work the video player. Which is good.
Moe: So she doesn't watch Pot Psychology.
Tracie: Right. So, I don't know, I really do feel like a lot of the old... that that's part of the reason we haven't heard a lot from older feminists. Maybe they aren't as in tune with blogs. Maybe, yeah, they know how to work Google and they know how to read you know, whatever, CNN.com, but maybe they don't understand the concept of a blog or whatever. Because I know young people...
Moe: Even if they understand the concept they're not going to necessarily know about Jezebel because it's just not... it's not like their peers or into it.
Lizz: But I think they would like to know what young feminists are doing or thinking.
Moe: No, no, no, when I wrote this thing for the Post, I got so many emails, oh, shit, I need to go reply to them because they were, like, most of them were really nice. And there were so many people that were like, I'm 71, I'm 73, thank you for saying this. And it was mostly just because I was like, basically, the whole message of the thing that I wrote was like, fuck upper middle class white feminists who only care about themselves. Let's think about somebody else. Because I don't feel oppressed. I definitely, yeah, like Nancy Pelosi I experience sexism all the time, I hate the fucking boys club, I have some problems with the way that... the patriarchy. But, seriously, am I the most oppressed group? Fuck no.
Lizz: But there's a reason you're not. There's a reason you're not. And there's women like Gloria Steinem who...
Moe: Because I'm American, because I grew up with a lot of cultural capital, I'm relatively educated and I'm here. I have a lot of advantages. The rest of the world...
Lizz: But 40 years ago you wouldn't have had one of those advantages. You wouldn't've had one of them.
Moe: No, it's true. But I do now! I do now! And that's the only thing that really matters.
Lizz: And you do now, and I thing that the problems, the problem that I feel so much about the world in general is that people do not have a sense of history. And that's why we have wars. And that's why we elect douchebags like George Bush. And if we don't really recognize the history of when we had nothing and that this show would never exist 4 years ago, I think it's a real danger to moving forward and to being able to have the life you have, it's awesome.
Moe: But another thing that's important to remember is that we have wars in this country because we don't remember history. Other people in other countries have wars because they remember history too well.
Lizz: Yeah, what does that mean?
Moe: Because they have stupid ethnic strife that they can drum up at any moment.
Lizz: But just like Reverend Wright? Look at the the country we live in! Look at what we drum up.
Moe: No, exactly.
Lizz: So it's not an us versus them.
Moe: If you live in, if you live for the future, you're in a better place. I'm not saying I don't respect the people who came before me or really who made it possible for me to live the way that I do. But getting hung up on their battles and getting hung up on their ... getting hung up every time a newscaster says something sexist about Hillary Clinton... yeah, I could spend a lot of time being mad about that shit. But I just don't think that it's productive.
Lizz: Right.
Moe: And I kind of think that that's the only way to sort of move forward.
Lizz: But I think the bigger issue... to me, a woman who says that since Hillary's not in I'm voting for McCain is a conversation to have because it's completely ridiculous, it just makes no sense and those people shouldn't even be speaking.
Moe: But Fox News has totally made a market out of those people.
Lizz: But, I mean, I just think historically we're very lucky and to negate all of it, there are important things to think about and to keep it local I think is a big thing. Because I think when you start taking big issues -- and I am going to go back to rape -- like rape and like other things and you put it on other oppressed regimes, Muslim regimes, that kind of thing, it says it's not happening here and it's happening here a lot. Rape is happening in the United States all the fucking time. And it doesn't have anything to do with sexual freedom, it has to do with how fucked up our society is.
Moe: No, it's totally true. No, I agree with you fully on that. I'll tell you guys a story actually, very briefly. I was just in London,and I talked to a girl who was working for CNBC in London but she worked for the Duke student newspaper a few years ago and she covered the Duke rape, alleged rape, scandal. And she said, "We were basically driving the media when we came here." And I remember, I was a pretty ambitious college journalist and if a big story comes to your town you own it, and everyone else just wants to know what you have to say. So she said, "Basically, I drove the media, and I was driven by my editor and my editor had been raped by a Duke lacrosse player." Well, duh. And she's like, "And the thing that didn't occur to me it that those two guys, they didn't really need to rape a stripper. They could rape whatever sorority girl they wanted." And I was like, "That is so damn true." Having been date raped a few times, you know. Like, that's it. And that's the problem. I remember, I guess, like, the third guy I ever had sex with date raped me. I got really mad at him. But I wasn't going to, like, fucking turn him into the police...
Lizz: Why not?
Moe: ... or fucking go through shit.
Lizz: But see that's the problem. Why not? I mean, I just am curious.
Moe: Well, it was a load of trouble and I, you know, I had better things to do, like drinking more [wry laugh]. And I just didn't... I actually just wanted to believe that he was a better guy.
Lizz: But do you understand, and I just have to say this, and you're going to...
Moe: And at the time I was 19, so
Lizz: Right, but you're going to get mad at me. Because... Here's where the conflict comes for me. When you talk about the older feminist women who only think about themselves, by not bringing somebody who raped you to justice, that man gets to go out and rape somebody else. So you were only thinking about yourself.
Moe: No, no, no, no. At the time, I mean, I remember asking him, I was like, "Why did you do that to me?" Because I remember the fact that he had hooked up, he was a big player, he had hooked up with this girl in my hall and this girl was a renowned slut. And I was not, you know, I was a little punk rock or whatever, but I was not somebody who was known, I didn't think at the time, to be easy, even though I was, because I'm obviously easy. But, anyway, so I was like, "Seriously, I know you didn't have sex with Michelle, why did you think it was ok after I said no 11 times." I fucking counted them but I was passing out. And he was like, "I just didn't think you thought sex was a big deal." And at the time I was like, "Yeah, I don't think it's that big a deal." But what the fuck? And that's what's so fucked up. It's like, yeah, he basically told me that he wouldn't do it to somebody else, he just thought I was super-slutty. Which I was mad about. But I really didn't think that this guy -- if you had seen this guy -- I really didn't think, he was, like, a barista, I don't know, like, whatever, I didn't think he was going to go out and rape again.
Lizz: Sure he would! He raped you because you were too drunk to defend yourself. That guy's fucking looking for drunk women.
Moe: No, but, I was, like, 19 and I'd fucked two other guys before in my life. So I didn't really know how the world worked. Now I'd be different. I recently saw a girl that he had -- Michelle, the girl from college -- and she told me that he was still a sleazebag basically. And I was like, "Wow, that guy is still a sleazebag, huh?" Seriously, it took me by surprise. I was like, I really wanted to think that after I chewed him out that that guy would stop thinking that it was just okay for him to stick his dick in some girl's pussy.
Lizz: I think that's where your mistake was.
Moe: Yeah, clearly, no it obviously was. And I was young. And I apologize, I wanted to tell.
Lizz: Let's get him.
Moe: Yeah, fuck that guy. John Si...
Lizz: Vigilante
Moe: Yeah. He's apparently a doctor which is the best part.
Lizz: Alright, so, okay, we have to go, really quick, let's bring this up to a, back to a good place.
Moe: Sorry, that was, like, really heavy.
Lizz: Yeah, that was intense. But, you know what, good. Okay. Nothing wrong with that.
Tracie: I really hate talking about rape, honestly. I mean, I know that it's a thing, I know it's real, and this one [points to Moe], but, like, I have to honestly say that, like, I know that it happens to girls who are smart who know what they're doing, and blah blah blah, but I have never, ever been in that situation and I have had lots and lot and lots of sex with a lot of people in my life. And I just, um, maybe, it's about education or maybe it's about...
Lizz: Maybe you're lucky. I mean, I have to say, you gotta like address the fact that you're fucking lucky.
Tracie: I think, I think it has to do with the fact that I'm like I'm smart when I, like, see my, I've taken self-defense... No, don't hiss. When I see myself in a situation that's not cool. I mean, I don't, I get wasted and stuff, sure, I mean, I'm kind of drunk now, but, like, when I see myself in a situation where I'm at risk, I'm out. I've never hung around with frat guys.
Moe: Yeah, but it's like that Holocaust poem...
Tracie: I mean, I'm not saying that just because I'm pro-active in my own safety that other girls suck because they're not.
Lizz: No, I think... Wait, wait, wait, hold on...
Moe: One thing that I would say about this particular guy, and then I want to be done with it...This guy I always felt safe around him, even after he date raped me, I always wanted to be like, "Oh, you should know that you did the wrong thing..."
Lizz: You're digging yourself into a huge whole darling, really, I gotta be honest, you were not safe with him, he raped you. So that, I can't let the story go on any more.
Moe: No, no, no, all I'm saying is that he didn't seem like the guy who was a date rapist.
Lizz: But they never... you know what, but I don't know what the stigma of that is, that's the whole thing. That like trying to define...
Moe: I don't know, guys that seem like date rapists... Paul Janka
Lizz: Who isn't? I seem like a date rapist. You know, the bottom line is that you can't, like, identify where latent rage and anger and all that is, it doesn't have a look, it doesn't have a style, it doesn't have any of that.
Moe: But it's also ridiculous to be like, you can never know and you have to be on guard at all times, it's like the War on Terror.
Lizz: No, it isn't, it's not the War on Terror. 'Cause what's different is is that sex is an individual thing and the way that you know how to do things is individual for you. You are a lucky woman that you've never been raped, bless your heart. It's awesome. You maybe are intuitively really great. But a lot of people aren't. And when a blanket message gets out in the world that it's ok to have this one kind of amazing lifestyle because it's always going to be safe for everyone because you've been really fortunate enough not to experience that guy, I just think, I just think there's some kind of middle ground to be had about how to be this really free sexual being and how to not... to realize that we don't live in a world that makes that completely safe to be that person.
Tracie: Anyone that would emulate someone else is not with it completely.
Lizz: Hello! We have a fucking $75 bazillion dollar television budget that is based on emulation. Like what are you talking about?
Moe: The entire economy is based on emulation.
Lizz: Your whole blog is based on people emulating you. Are you nuts?
Trace: I don't think that anyone should emulate me.
Lizz: Yes, well they do! Regardless of whether you think they should! That's like when football players say, "I'm not a role model." They are and you are. You're a de facto role models.
Tracie: I think that saying that women are going to do whatever they see on television or what they read or whatever is undermining women's intelligence to make their own decisions. And I feel like women are smart enough to say, "Oh, this situations' not right for me, and this isn't right for me, and this lifestyle's not ok for me."
Lizz: Look how many Ugg boots were purchased. Fucking case in point.
Tracie: And I didn't buy a single pair. Not one.
Lizz: But I'm just saying, you know.
Moe: That's the truth. I didn't buy one either. I don't really have any shoes.

Comments

[mauve]

go kira!

[ladybug]

Can I just say that regardless of the position people take on the debate, choosing to insult Lizz (or, for that matter, Tracie or Moe - though I haven't seen it done this way) by saying nasty things about her body or calling her some variation on "cunt" is anti-woman, anti-feminist, and just plain shitty. It's sexist, counterproductive, and hateful to choose to attack her that way, because it's an attack not on her actions or her character, but her body *as a woman*, and given the subject matter here, especially inappropriate. I'm talking to you, Ventura and youguysarefeminists? - don't be assholes.

[sufferingforfashion]

I don't know. . .I think you and Moe are really great, and I'm sure I wouldn't have been able to express myself any better had I been shitdrunk and on camera. . .but some of the things you guys said were pretty awful. The thing about you not getting raped because you had good intuition or whatever, that's just horseshit. That's blaming the victim in the worst way, which is something everybody at Jezebel decries regularly. And Moe, well, the fact that she's still making excuses for her date rapist says that she's got some serious emotional shit she oughta be working on.

I agree this isn't some ridiculous debacle as it was portrayed, and many (most) of the haters need to relax, but I was really disappointed in both of you. You both seemed smarter than that.

[shanta]

That sucks that you wernt allowed to talk about it on jez. I can't see why not, and that look Lizz gave you at the end of the interview was so two faced, she seemed so nice and sympathetic at the time. and hah!- "That's the truth. I didn't buy one either. I don't really have any shoes."

[Ryan]

Hey SM -
I read your blog a lot, and have been a commenter on Jez since its inception. I adore Pot Psychology, along with Crappy Hour (Moe's IM convo each morning), so I've been basking in your humor for over a year.

But I have to say, I was a bit disappointed by this interview. Ok, Lizz sucks bad, but I don't think that you and Moe represented yourselves very well either (particularly Moe, actually, but my comments go to both of you). Here's the main thing that bothered me (and still does):

You don't take responsibility. Not for the sometimes wayward ways that you presented yourself during the show, not for your position as a pseudo-role model for women... not for anything.

The truth is, by writing for a blog like Jezebel, you and Moe have become a mouthpiece for hundreds of thousands of women. You give voice to female concerns, hopes, fears, etc. By taking the job at Jez, you signed up for this - this sort of "quasi-celebrity" status.

And by denying that, by passing blame and rolling your eyes at the idea of "SM as role-model', you do a disservice to your readers and to the American population at large who may not understand the lives of "modern day woman" (haha, sounds so Natural History Museum).

Many women (myself included) do you see your openness as something to look up to, something to respect and appreciate. And when you reject that praise, it's a little disconcerting.

But that's just me. I think it's time to move on from this "bad night" and move on to more great writing.

-Ryan

[Ryan]

P.S.
I didn't mean that you don't take responsibility for anything in your life - I reread my comment and saw that it reads that way. I meant not for anything that has come out of this interview. (just to clarify)

[babyblueeyes]

"hey kira, why don't you shut the fuck up? how fucking DARE you say that i came off bad because i was drunk?"

yeah GOD kira, how dare you have an opinion and share it on a blog with open comments. FOR SHAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i dunno... i keep coming back here hoping there will be a post NOT about this whole mess but keep finding dead-horse-beating. it's embarrassing for everyone involved.

i think it would be much better to let it go. letting people know how much it still upsets you just makes you look like you have thin skin. not a good trait on the internet, especially when everyone will have completely forgotten about this within the next week or two anyway.

[Jessie]

The upsetting thing to me about all this is it made me realize how a confident, no-shit-taking young woman can come across, even just with her vernacular, as a moronic ditchpig with a large vocabulary. To say producers "made sure you double fist" is sort of an insult to your own intelligence and capabilities, no? When I go to a restaurant opening and see cocktails pushed at my nose every .87 seconds, I politely decline no matter how hard a person tries to convince me. Why? Because I would like people to perceive me in a completely coherent state of mind because otherwise, they have no clue of how capable I am of doing my job.

The shitty thing about this whole situation is you, like so many women, take pride in your own indifference to outward perceptions because YOU know who you are, YOU know what you can do. And here you are, giving her so much credit - for MAKING you come across as an inane twit.

In the end, it is so saddening. Because just when we think we've come so far, we shit all over ourselves.

And I'm sure you're absolutely ABHORRING all of this TERRIBLE publicity she has brought you. Shut up and go buy yourself a fucking bottle of Dom to celebrate.

[babyblueeyes]

"she's kinda the rapist in the situation, in that she plied us with booze and then took advantage of us."

oh come on.

[rhiannon]

I think it's so interesting (sad) to see how many mainstream feminist outlets (i.e. feministing) fall short of really discussing women's sexuality and sexual assault. Although such feminist may declare that getting the conversation out there is a priority it is clear that those who chose to discuss such themes outside of a pre-constructed dialog are unwelcome. It's sad to see a restriction of a woman's sexual autonomy and discussion coming out of a feminist community. And this restriction is obvious when reading the reactions of some towards Jezebel, Slut Machine, etc.

[babyblueeyes]

"What I don't get about this Kira girl is why she thinks she is the SM police. Seriously? Like, boo hoo, you some how hurt her feelings? Why is this so personal? Common girlfriend, enroll yourself in a community College somewhere and get a life. I'd like to know who died and left Ki-Ki in charge of the internet? I'm glad I am all the way over here in Seattle with Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos. Sheesh. Sounds like this girl is seriously bitter for some apparent reason. Probably a) a bad dye job/over sized forehead or b) her boyfriend dumped her for a queen and she secretly hates gays. Either way, I keep reading her comments and thinking if I had a cock I wouldn't mind leaving a nice imprint on the side of her forehead or for that matter, trick her into choking on it."

DAMN. that is some of the most undeserved, mean shit i've ever read. and about someone who wasn't even talking about you, no less. troll much?

i'm officially disgusted. lizz is a cunt. anyone who disagrees with one sanctioned version of events gets called ugly, homophobic, lonely, uneducated, bitter, and generally condescended toward. how old are you guys? do you know how to disagree with people without automatically going into "insult & curse" mode?

i'm out. i'm going to start getting my LOLs at freerepublic.com instead, where at least i'm not made to be ashamed of my own peers.

[slut machine]

look ryan, it's fine if people want to see me as a role model for whatever reason, but i can't be concerned with that. letting that affect me and my actions and the way i live my life would be lead to me being totally disingenuous. i don't need to own up to any responsibility in this situation because i think that i did by saying that stand by everything that i said. even though i may have been ineloquent at the time. i guess it's flattering that people think that every time i open my mouth i'm making a statement for all of womankind, but come off it, it's totally retarded.

[Kate]

I think that the whole thing was blown waaaay out of proportion. Lizz Winstead strikes me as a wannabe schoolgirl who is more than happy to try and ingratiate herself with the cool kids by making inappropriate comments (see: fucking for moving help) but then tattles to anyone who will listen about how the cool kids are a bunch of degenerates.

I'm with Sammi's WTF reaction concerning the Uggs comment. So, women are mindless robots who know how to do nothing except mimic the people who create the media they consume? Give me a fucking break. And besides, creating a parallel between buying a pair of SHOES and deciding to lead a certain lifestyle is beyond idiotic.

Did you and Moe represent yourselves to the best of your ability? No. But I certainly don't think that this whole thing is worth the frenzy that's accompanied it.

[Ryan]

Hey SM -
If you can't be concerned with the role model status, then why take the job at Jez (a powerhouse media outlet) in the first place?

I'm not saying that you should have to change yourself (God no!), but I think it wouldn't hurt to at least be cognizant of how you come off to your readers, viewers, etc. And also, to appreciate that your words and views make an impact on something larger than yourself.

[dave]

these haters are all up in your shit ... yeah, maybe hearing the drunken rambles and giggles would make it seem worse, but words being what they are, i think you can stand by what you said.

also, the HRC rant is out of line. the idea that gay folks need to primarily identify by that label is absurd, and considering that the HRC operates on a sort of "gays deserve to be treated like anybody else" position, the "human" label itself is just fine. plus it avoids the troubles of being too specific ... i doubt the NAACP would have called itself what it is if they knew then what we know now.

peace.

[slut machine]

ryan, it's not my job to be a role model. it's my job to be an honest writer. and it's my goal to relate to other women, not dictate to them.

[holden]

jesus...

i agree with you SM. i saw most of the video, and personally it was barely understandable. but teh transcript brings a whole new light to everything.

that horrible excuse of a woman is a bitch.

[lap]

Thanks for posting the transcript, because it makes it clearer what you both actually said.

[Ryan]

Sm,
Not sure where you got the dictating message from - I certainly didn't imply that dictating to women should be part of your job. I do think that an honest writer like yourself who works for a high-profile media outlet like Gawker has an obligation to at least acknowledge and respect the fact that other people might be listening. That's all I'm sayin'.

[Jake]

"you bolded your own statements."

"yeah, on my own fucking website."

Totally priceless!!

[Jennifer]

I never comment on here Tracie, but I think you are awesome. Your posts here and on Jezebel are fun and funny and I always look forward to reading them.
I was loathe to watch the video because as my bff said when we discussed the commentroversy "I would die of shame if someone interviewed the two of us after we'd been to Happy Hour."
But I did watch it and this Lizz character (who I have never heard of) does come off as super-provocative and entangling.
Just know that a couple of Brooklyn girls love you and are willing to fight the good fight.

[Leah]

I am totally disgusted that Lizz would accuse Moe of allowing other women to get raped because she didn't prosecute her rapist. I also don't understand what she is talking about in terms of "risky behavior" that leads to rape. Like what, going out in public or going on dates? I have a couple of friends who have been raped, and in both cases it was done by a boyfriend, someone they trusted. I don't know anyone who was hit over the head and pulled into the bushes. It is not the woman's fault if she got raped!

[ladyslipper]

I find your take on this strange, to the point that I wonder if you are purposely not getting it for page views or somethings.

Here's what you should have said:

I stand by my comments, but at this point, I realize some people might have misunderstood what I was trying to convey.

For the record, I have great sympathy for any woman who has been raped, and I support her right to deal with it any way she needs to. While I do believe intuition can be an important part of staying safe, victims are never to blame for being attacked.

There were many factors to this incident, some outside of my control, and plenty of blame to go around. For my part though, I realize now that I should have prepared more vigorously for the appearance and drank less alcohol before going on stage.

I'm so sorry that my fans were hurt by my appearance, as that was never my intention.

[Tara]

I find it so amusing all the people who are saying 'we're still on this?' 'move on' etc etc this is a personal blog. SM can write what the hell she wants to write about - if you don't like it move on yourself.

All in all I think one of the main reasons feminists get such a bad rap and stigma is because of how damn hypocritical they are. One minute they're saying 'we should all join together and support one another' etc and then they tear each other down to make themselves look good as I feel Lizz did to SM and Moe and how people on this blog are doing to SM. Chris Rock is true when he says the problem with women is that women hate other women. All these people saying it was inappropriate and shameful etc should think about what they would have said. SM and Moe were invited there to be entertaining, if they wanted a seriousserious intellectual debate they would have gotten someone with a degree in gender studies or someone equally stuffy. People need to lighten up and realise that there is badness in the world but sometimes you need to poke fun at it and see the bright side.

[Kristy]

Are you two fucking serious? This does not get you off the hook. You are stupid to believe that a man suddenly believes that what he did was wrong after a girl yells at him. You understand nothing about the patriarchy and have obviously never studied feminism. Perhaps you should just stick with the term "slut." Feminist certainly does not fit you at all.

And you have a million spelling errors! Learn how to use a dictionary before you start spewing your redemption piece.

[Kristy]

Are you two fucking serious? This does not get you off the hook. You are stupid to believe that a man suddenly believes that what he did was wrong after a girl yells at him. You understand nothing about the patriarchy and have obviously never studied feminism. Perhaps you should just stick with the term "slut." Feminist certainly does not fit you at all.

And you have a million spelling errors! Learn how to use a dictionary before you start spewing your redemption piece.

[invalidator]

can NOT believe you're still on this....

how frail your ego must be to keep beating this dead horse... to plead you were victimized... and to keep desperately trying to shore up support among your "fans"

you continue to set yourself back

[Caitlin]

Ivalidator - I'm with Tara on this. It's HER blog, about HER life - we're just spectators, and can walk away or, for that matter, go to a different site.
First people gave her shit for ignoring it, and now they're moaning about "beating a dead horse".
Shut up.

[archipelagic]

ladyslipper--

That's exactly what I was hoping to hear all along, but I guess it's not coming. Like seriously, exactly. That's all it would have taken for me to be over it, because I wanted to believe that really was SM's opinion.

But everything about this is just gross. All three of them came off badly, the fallout was nasty, and I can't believe all the insults and meanness on all sides in these comments, like from "youguysarefeminists" supporting Tracie, then calling people bitches and whores and cunts. Just yuck. Reminds me of how far we still have to go. I just want to give everyone a cookie and hope we can all chill out.

[Samantha]

Ok, so here's the thing I really take issue with:

I sincerely do not understand why everyone is asking Traci to admit that the way she acted on STM was in some way "wrong," or "inappropriate."

Traci was being Traci. Brash, drunk Traci. The same fucking Traci we all know and love to read about. Part of the fun of reading Traci's blog is that I know that I would NEVER try to or be able to pull off half the shit she does. I'm not interested in emulating her, but I admire her effortless honesty and sincerity; even regarding topics that people don't want to talk about or hear about. The fact that she can be abrasive is part of her charm, so why are people so fucking surprised at the way she acted on the show? Also, fuck anyone who's appalled at the "unprofessionalism" of being drunk on a show where these broads were ASKED to get drunk and where they were FED booze. Why do you keep missing the "Thinking and Drinking" thing?

I think that Traci's last couple posts about the situation have been right on. Her side needs to be shown, because Traci and Moe were obviously taken advantage of here by a manipulative, self reightous bitch. Calling people out for their personal expression of feminism, and saying their behavior is somehow wrong or improper when they're just expressing their personal beliefs and freedoms is pretty screwed up.

Like I said before, I read Traci's blog because she's a cool, ballsy chick. Not because I want to be her. And just because I read her blog doesn't mean I'm going to go out and get wasted and put myself in a position to be raped. Lizz took this in a really messed up direction.

[hughman]

thanks doll for posting this. i never watched the whole video and this transcript def. puts things in perspective for me. i agree with all the peeps above - THIS was what the Big Deal was about? puhleeze. Lizz Whateverhernameis is a bitch to tryand make this something it wasn't. delete. ignore. move on. call Rich and giggle. do whatever you need.

[youguysarefeminists?]

I'm pretty sure there are more offensive things to say than "bitch" "whore" and "cunt". Like, for example telling someone that they're destined to be nothing more than a potential victim or accusing someone of perpetuating rape by making a personal choice to not make a private matter public. Not coincidentally that bitch/whore/cunt Lizz more or less said both to Traci and Moe during that interview.

I do wish everyone would chill though, and I'm in for a group hug. No fatties. (kidding, kidding)

[cw]

@yougusarefeminists?: hahahaha (to the last sentence).

It's time we reappropriate the word "cunt" anyway. We need like a PSA where women from all over the globe stand up and say. "I'm a cunt." "Je suis une cunt" "Soy una cunt." etc etc

[katie]

Despite the inane hoopla or being taken of advantage or the super lame apologizesat least all of this brought to light some interesting talk surrounding feminisim. We are multi-valent, thus, feminism must be too. If it's not, I want out.

[katie]

Despite the inane hoopla or being taken of advantage or the super lame apologizesat least all of this brought to light some interesting talk surrounding feminisim. We are multi-valent, thus, feminism must be too. If it's not, I want out.

[Scot]

SM - Anyone looking clearly at this can see what happened. Lizz is broke and needs publicity, bad. She goes and finds someone who is currently hot, outspoken, and known to be pliable with liquor. She or her people read Jez, knew that she could get juicy comments out of a hot button topic (rape), and proceeded to exploit that to it's fullest extent.

Lizz is a consummate professional. She knew exactly what she was doing. She didn't know precisely what you guys would say but as anyone who watches the video can see she is excellent at steering the interview.

I am sure part of the hurt about this is the surprise that someone who is a Feminist proponent would stoop to being such a premeditated douche to other women. You can see that in her comments to Moe about letting her rapist attack other women that she is deliberately baiting her. Lizz does her homework, and knows how to interview, no one can deny that.

It's all about the ratings, and thusly all about the money. Don't take it personally, and I am sorry you had to learn such a shitty lesson.

We love ya, and enjoy your writing. Keep doing what you (obviously) do so well.

[Josh]

Wow, maybe one day you'll get over this. I remember way back when this blog was a funny and sexy read... -1 reader

[molly]

I'm not exactly sure what was expected of Tracie and Moe at an event with the word "drinking" in its name.

I was irritated when Anna made her post about how Jezebel was "misrepresented" because Jezebel *is* the people who write for it; Moe and Tracie, while perhaps not super tactful, sounded just like their blog posts to me. I feel kind of let down by Anna/Gawker/Jez because of the apology, the tail-between-legs response to this situation, instead of the fuck-you-I'm-an-opinionated-woman attitude I used to associate with the blog (Jezebel).

Lizz Winstead was doing her best to be as subtle as possible in her wheedling and poking about into sensitive subjects with Moe and Tracie. She seems quite villified to me now that I've read this transcript, really.

Tracie, and Moe of course, keep writing whatever the fuck you want.
It just sucks that free speech and free press are attacked when someone with a Y chromosome speaks her mind, and especially in a forum of supposed peers. And again it totally sucks that the forum in which you guys spoke was presented as a hang out-type situation with drinks and chatting and really turned out to be a wolves' den.

[mamasan]

"i guess it's flattering that people think that every time i open my mouth i'm making a statement for all of womankind"

There's a difference between people thinking you are making a statement for all womankind and thinking that you are an embarassment to our gender because you're visible, and you have a big fan base of very impressionable and susceptible women as evidenced by their posts. Come on, they think of you as religion, completely irreproachable no matter what you do. They even try to sound like you. They use the verbage that they think you would approve. That's fucking scary to me. That's why I have personal investment in wanting you to do the right thing. Which now that I think about it, I assume that because you write well that you actually possess a character. Maybe you don't.

[slut machine]

mamasan,

do you know how sexist you sound? no one would ever say that a man who got drunk on a panel had let his entire gender down. and i did nothing wrong.

[JLu]

While the way Tracie has chosen to respond to this debacle may not be 'productive', you all need to stop condemning her! What is a blog if not a place to vent?! Slut Machine is only human, and she's reacting to being taken advantage of in a very human way... We've all been there (I have, anyway) and I wish the judgement would stop (or at least slow up a bit.)

Were Tracie & Moe drunk? Yes. Was their timing bad? Absolutely. But Lizz was incredibly unfair to them throughout the show. She was rude; interrupting, refusing to allow her guests to clarify or defend their statements... Not exactly the stuff that good discussion is made of.

Also, I am completely in awe of Lizz's suggestion that Moe, in opting not to report her rape, was somehow perpetuating sexual assault. That is easily the most disgusting thing I've ever heard. My mother was raped. She didn't report it. She had her reasons, all of them valid, for acting as she did. If someone said to me what Lizz said to Moe, I don't know how I would react. I have a hunch I'd wind up in the back of a police car.

[JLu]

While the way Tracie has chosen to respond to this debacle may not be 'productive', you all need to stop condemning her! What is a blog if not a place to vent?! Slut Machine is only human, and she's reacting to being taken advantage of in a very human way... We've all been there (I have, anyway) and I wish the judgement would stop (or at least slow up a bit.)

Were Tracie & Moe drunk? Yes. Was their timing bad? Absolutely. But Lizz was incredibly unfair to them throughout the show. She was rude; interrupting, refusing to allow her guests to clarify or defend their statements... Not exactly the stuff that good discussion is made of.

Also, I am completely in awe of Lizz's suggestion that Moe, in opting not to report her rape, was somehow perpetuating sexual assault. That is easily the most disgusting thing I've ever heard. My mother was raped. She didn't report it. She had her reasons, all of them valid, for acting as she did. If someone said to me what Lizz said to Moe, I don't know how I would react. I have a hunch I'd wind up in the back of a police car.

[J Lynn's Baby Daddy]

While the way Tracie has chosen to respond to this debacle may not be 'productive', you all need to stop condemning her! What is a blog if not a place to vent?! Slut Machine is only human, and she's reacting to being taken advantage of in a very human way... We've all been there (I have, anyway) and I wish the judgement would stop (or at least slow up a bit.)

Were Tracie & Moe drunk? Yes. Was their timing bad? Absolutely. But Lizz was incredibly unfair to them throughout the show. She was rude; interrupting, refusing to allow her guests to clarify or defend their statements... Not exactly the stuff that good discussion is made of.

Also, I am completely in awe of Lizz's suggestion that Moe, in opting not to report her rape, was somehow perpetuating sexual assault. That is easily the most disgusting thing I've ever heard. My mother was raped. She didn't report it. She had her reasons, all of them valid, for acting as she did. If someone said to me what Lizz said to Moe, I don't know how I would react. I have a hunch I'd wind up in the back of a police car.

[An Adult]

In context Moe comes off better and you still sound very uneducated about issues you're paid to write about. You can't simply excuse yourself because you just write about your experiences..no one else in the world gets away with that on a professional level. Jezebel isn't some personal blog for your friends to read. Besides that, the quotes Lizz highlighted remain retarded and she called you out on it during the interview but apparently someone force-fed you guys alcohol so you just didn't get it..that particular excuse is beyond ridiculous as you are in your late 20s.

Could you possibly learn something from this? Just a tiny bit? Maybe stop mentioning the complete joke your 'paid rape' experience was in any conversation because it wasn't brave or anything besides a badly written self-indulgent piece on a sexual fantasy? Is it even just a remote possibility?

[birds in herds]

So I just came from a bar and some dude told me that he got to decide whether my people were terrorists or not.

Fucking Retarded.

I mean--here is a dude. Couldn't be smarter than shoelace, and he gets to decide whether Pacific Islanders can transfer $10,000 or not. I mean $10,000 is a house in the Pacific. In the US or anywhere else it is a pair of heels or maybe a down payment on a prius.

Where is the fuckin justice? for all those assholes that say "SM WTF I thought we were BFFs why do you love rape and beer" fuck them. they are dumb and even though they like to convince themselves that they know what hardship is--they don't know.

they are all bastards of bithces any way. Happy people don't troll blogs. and i am going to eat a bagel and go to sleep. good night NYC.

[not a victim]

1. SM said nothing "out of line." The comments along those lines are incoherent. Ladies, stop using your own victimhood as a bludgeon. Just because you were victimized doesn't make you the last word, or even relevant to the discussion.

2. You want to report all rapes? Start with your own! Leave Moe alone for god's sake.

3. Seek counseling. You obviously are still raw about your own victimization.
http://www.rapevictimadvocates.org

4. Focus your venom on somebody that deserves it. Say - I don't know, John McCain and his insensitive rape joke. Rush Limbaugh and his "feminazi" slurs. You know, people that actually hate women and frightened by them.

[mamasan]

"do you know how sexist you sound? no one would ever say that a man who got drunk on a panel had let his entire gender down. and i did nothing wrong."

I wasn't thinking about your drunkard self at all - you seem capable of being embarassing even when you're not drunk and not on stage.

[YouRASpoiledBratSM]

Ladyslipper is right. But Tracie will never apologize because she is a moronic, immature piece of crap. None of this was about feminism..or her drunken idiotic rambling. Who gives a rats ass about any of it? The whole thing was a disaster on all sides but this never would have erupted in this fashion had Tracie not said that she doesn't get raped cause she's "like smart". Watch the video. The transcript makes it look better than it was. The reason the audience hissed was because you meant it exactly like it sounded and THAT remark alone is what we all are calling for an apology for. I find it telling that the one thing about that whole discusting interview (and yes...Lizz was discusting as well) that ACTUALLY WAS inexcusable and important is the LEAST mentioned point by your fan club. "Fuck the rape victims" ??? Seriously??? What the hell is wrong with you losers!? Fuck You! I hate to break it to you sweetie but you are NOT smart...and you sure as hell don't care about anyone else but yourself. If you make a racist remark and a black person is offended...you fuckin apologize!!! Unless of course, you meant it. Then have the guts to stand up and own the slur. Go ahead Tracie...I dare you stand up and say that you believe that everyone who has been raped deserved it because they weren't "smart" like you. Either that or apologize like a mature, decent human being would in order to acknowledge their sorrow at hurting someone else unintentionally. yeah...we'll all keep holding our breath waiting for that because you have already shown that you have no compassion for others. The only thing that Lizz was right about is the fact that you have been "Lucky"...Lucky that rape victims everywhere don't punch you in the face everytime you show your "bad ass" on the street.

[LV]

I have to agree wholeheartedly with Ladyslipper. Sometimes you say "I'm sorry" even if you don't feel you did anything wrong. You say you are sorry for misperceptions in what you said or did, and for unintentionally hurting people. At least, you do if you are mature and not a jerk.

This whole situation is preposterous, it really says nothing about feminism nor does it call into question SM's or Moe's feminism IMO, and yes Lizz Winstead seems like a colossal ass (and a bully, to Moe). It was just a bunch of drunks having a piss-poor conversation that wildfired on the internet, as conflicts involving popular bloggers usually do.

But to type out all that spewage when full video exists, in a THIRD blog post about this tired situation, and then to say "[Lizz] is kinda the rapist in the situation, in that she plied us with booze and then took advantage of us" -- jesus, the victim mentality, whininess, and lack of accountability for one's actions is astounding. And given how angry people were at the "like, smart" comment, the Lizz = rapist analogy also seems to show a strong lack of good judgment, timing, and reading a room.

Why SM hasn't even addressed ladyslipper's post is curious as well.

[slut machine]

i have never been date raped because i am street smart. i don't deny that. that's why i'm not apologizing for what i said. sure, maybe it has something to do with luck. like how i've been lucky that i've never been hit by a car. but i also look both ways before i cross the street.

think of it this way (and this is camille paglia's metaphor, not mine): you park your car in times square and leave the keys on the hood and then it gets stolen. is it a crime? yes. should you be surprised? no.

you know? that's the truth. and like christina hoff sommers says, "the truth is no enemy to compassion." just because i think and live along these lines doesn't mean that i think that people "deserved" rape or "asked for it." but there are preventative measures to be taken. we should all be accountable for our own actions, strive for autonomy, and learn how to deal with our socio-sexual interactions with men, without having to go running to a third party all the time to handle shit for us. but we also shouldn't have to live in fear 24/7 either.

now, this only applies to date rape of course. but here's the thing, you may not like that i said that, you may not agree with me, but it's what i believe, and it does not mean that i am any less feminist, it does not mean i hate women, and it does not mean that i think that women who are raped are stupid. on the contrary, i like to believe that women are TOO smart to be undermined in such a way to assume that they can't be in control of their own bodies and own choices.