Taken Out of Context I Must Seem So Strange

Tracie: If you bring out a vibrator and a guy's ego is hurt by that, then he's retarded.
Moe: Or an toothbrush (laughs). An electric toothbrush.
Tracie: They make attachments for that, actually.
Lizz: There's a toothbrush?
Tracie: They make make attachments for the Oral B electric toothbrush, the Sonicare...
Moe: I have that one!
Tracie: I know!
Lizz: So you mean your toothbrush becomes your vibrator?
Tracie: Yeah, it actually... you know, the thing that bothers me about modern vibrators or whatever...
Lizz: Is that they become toothbrushes!
Tracie: No, 'cause like, I am strictly the Hitachi Magic Wand, there's no other thing that's better than that.
Lizz: So you're still a plug-in girl
Tracie: Yes. Well, because, you can't get any real power from, like... I need a chunkier ride.
Moe: You always say that.
Lizz: And do you have the attachments?
Moe: But I've got, just, like, the standard vibrator and it's fine.
Tracie: See, no, I can't, I can't.
Moe: It also doesn't make as much noise as my frickin' toothbrush.
Tracie: Oh, I live alone, so...
Lizz: Maybe you just have to, like oil it up a little. But in an age where, you know, where you're focusing on sexual freedom, it's just, it's not always safe. It's not always safe to be with strange men, it's not always safe to just have a free, 100% total sexual life. How do you address that? Do you address it?
Moe: I don't really get out that much, enough to really even care about that problem.
Tracie: I mean, people are always saying that it's not safe to go home with strange men, blah blah blah...
Moe: Like, what's going to happen?
Tracie: .... Mr. Goodbar or whatever.
Lizz: You could get raped.
Tracie: But I wouldn't.
Moe: That's happened, too, but you live through that, you know.
Lizz: Sometimes you don't.
Moe: I mean, that's true if they have weapons.
Tracie: But when I bring someone home, I want to fuck them, I'm not going to bring someone home and be like, "No, not tonight."

Lizz: That's not how rape works.
Moe: You're not going to ask for it.
Lizz: Wait, wait, hold on a second, that's just not how rape works, though. If you bring a guy home and want to fuck him and he goes, "Guess what, I'm a psycho and now that I'm licking your face I want to kill you."
Tracie: I know, but I live in Williamsburg, and there's only pussies in Williamsburg.
Lizz: What the fuck?
Tracie: There's aren't very assertive men there. [audience laughs] And everyone I fuck is a pussy.
Moe: Also, the thing about the rapists of our generation, it's that they're not very assertive men but that they all use drugs, they all have some sort of drugs that they use on you. So, it's good when you start to feel like -- and I don't know if this has happened to me or if I just drink to much -- but there are times when you feel like "Wow, I'm really woozy, I need to go home." I sort of feel like I'm a connoisseur...
Lizz: Of date rape drugs?
Moe: No, of hearing these stories. It's really hard to prosecute them. So you should try to avoid them at all costs, but, you know, I don't know. It's a very strange, strange line.
Tracie: I paid someone to rape me once.
Moe: Oh, right, she did that.
[Audience member]: Tell that story.
Moe: It sounded like a good story.
Lizz: First off, you can't pay someone to rape you...
Moe: Yeah, yeah that's true.
Lizz: ... you were a willing accomplice. You have said "Rape me now"
Tracie: I know, it was kind of weird.
Lizz: But your audience, you can saying "Living in Williamsburg, bah bah bah bah" but your audience is global. And in some places -- I don't even buy your Williamsburg thing, I think it's hilarious that you would say that -- but there are people who live in places where men aren't just... are horrible rapists and who prey on women who are trying to just be women that are sexual beings.
Tracie: I understand that that exists, but I really can't relate to it because I didn't start having sex until I was 17 and a half, and then I moved to New York when I was 18. And you would think that you'd encounter more rapists in this big city, but, I don't know, I haven't. I've always... I don't know if I attract, like, dudes that want to be dominated or something, or...
Moe: I attract rapists, so I can speak to this.
Tracie: I feel like that because I'm a feminist I have this issue where I just naturally dominate everybody and I kind of want that. But I had this fantasy where I wanted to be dominated. So I paid someone -- well, I didn't pay someone, I had a magazine pay for it -- so that I wouldn't have to pay for it.
Lizz: That is two steps removed from rape. You are so not being raped now, now Conde Nast is raping you. [laughs]. That's pretty funny.
Tracie: I mean, I know that women deal with that stuff in their life, but I honestly, I know that that happens, but never anything close to that has ever happened to me.
Lizz: But it's a reality of sexual freedom, and that's I guess what I'm trying to get at, because of this kind of fucked up reality of sexual freedom, do you feel an obligation of address it in a real way? To help women avoid situations where they can put themselves at risk?
Tracie: I am not Captain Save-A-Ho. [laughter] I feel like I can only really... The thing that I can do is I can just write... I only write what I know. That's what I do best. And the only thing that I can do is write about my experiences and if women can relate to that, then I feel like that's great and they... and we can all share those experiences. But I feel like in the same way that, like, Moe knows shit about China, I don't know shit about China. I wouldn't write about that. I don't know shit about rape, and so I don't really want to write about that because, like, in a way that I might be like "This is how you protect yourself," like, I've taken self-defense courses and stuff and that's never been something that I've had to encounter, so, I feel like I really write from my own experiences, and so that's really all I can go by. As far as writing about the truth and whatever.
Moe: I think that's an interesting point that you make because I've totally be "victimized" [air quotes hers] and I feel like I must kind of broadcast something. But the point is, I think that you were saying, what do you regret in terms of sexual experiences. And I guess I regret being date raped, but mostly, yeah, I regret most of the hours, days, years that I've spent being drunk. I really like alcohol, but it's kind of a waste of time. So I would tell people that. And otherwise, it seems like, in terms of bad sexual experiences that you have, the worst ones always seem to be in countries where sex is not accepted, or sex is ... that is the great thing about New York, I've never had any problems with anyone here. It's always these situations in which it's much more shameful.
Tracie: Where women are oppressed.
Moe: And you hear about crap like, I was talking over the weekend to this guy who's in Baghdad and he was helping this woman out of Basra, and in Iraq they do the thing, I guess I had heard this so many times before...
Lizz: In Iraq they do the thing? What does that mean?
Moe: They all have anal sex to preserve their virginity.
Lizz: Yes and then shred their bowels.
Moe: Because if you have... if you are accused of losing your virginity in Iraq, they will check you out. They are experts on this shit. It's insane. And this one girl ad this crush on a British soldier, she was 17, she had a crush on him. She told her best friend. And somehow it got out that she had lost her virginity to him, even though that was not true -- he didn't even know who she was. And her father killed her.
Lizz: Her father killed her. Honor killings.
Moe: Honor killing. So then her mother got mad about that and tried to leave and then she got assassinated within two weeks. So I'm talking to this women's rights organization in Basra because I can't even believe that, it's so hard to comprehend it. And she's like, "Well, it's better to be a temporary wife than a prostitute." And I was like, "What's a temporary wife?" Basically, like, in Iran this happens but it's more of a joke, but In Iraq you can marry somebody for like a day or like a week and have sex with them and then you get divorced and then it's ok, you're not as much of a whore then.
Lizz: So both people enter into the agreement knowing there'll be a divorce kind of thing?
Moe: Yeah, it's like, if you want to have a one-night stand with somebody, you get married.
Lizz: It's like their version of Vegas?
Moe: Yeah, exactly. But it's like, without.... And people get raped in Iraq constantly. It's true, rape is an instrument of war. That's where it happens. Where you have people who are sort of on the same level about what sex means -- which is not not much.
Lizz: But rape isn't about sex. So I think you're equating two different things. Rape is about power and it's about...
Moe: No, that's true.
Lizz: So the sexual proclivity of a society and equality has nothing to do with the rapists in the society. Like, I think that needs to be said.
Moe: No, no, no, I think that's true, but what I'm saying is that the societies in which sex is most fetishized, I guess, or that the societies where it's most repressed, seem to be the places where rape is a really big problem, maybe because it involves so much shame.
Lizz: But I think it might be a slippery slope to go down to talk about how much we know about rape, because it's one of the most underreported things because women don't. And in the United States it's really underreported. So we don't know how much rape is really going on here because people don't report it. And because date rape is so hard to prove, that I think women let a lot of it go by. And so, I think that that's just, for me, something.
Moe: That's totally true.
Tracie: I mean, I understand that it's a big problem and stuff and I'm not trying to undermine any of that, but at the same time I really feel like just because... I mean, I am really not trying to undermine it but just because I am a woman with a vagina I am not automatically classified as a potential rape victim. And I really feel like we have so much more of a shared culture beyond being victimized. And so I feel like, I don't know, the things that I try to write about, the things that I want to talk about, is more like, it's not so shitty to be a woman. And it's often shitty to be a woman, but not all the time. And there are things that are really great about being a girl that guys don't get to experience, and we share and no one else would be able to understand that.
Lizz: I completely agree with that.
Moe: Nancy Pelosi got called out a few... maybe last week for saying much the same thing. Which was just, like, "Yes, you know, sexism, I experience it all the time, but fuck it, I don't care." She didn't say "fuck it," but she should've. Obviously she should've.
Lizz: Implied.
Moe: And I have advantages being a woman, and I don't really even  care to talk about it. And that's one thing, after this campaign, I just got so, honestly, like, I just got so sick of talking about sexism. Because yes, obviously, people are sexist. But if someone is going to underestimate me because I'm a woman, or Tracie, or anyone I know, they're just retarded. No offense to the retards.
Lizz: Do you think that sexism played a role with Hillary?
Moe: No, I think that everything else.
Tracie: I don't actually.
Moe: No.
Lizz: I mean, I think the media was sexist. I think you can pinpoint the media and Chris Matthews because he's a shitbag...
Moe: Sure
Lizz: ...and I've said it before and I'll say it again that I think sexism is out there. That's the field. And I think that it was a false...
Moe: I don't think it was sexism that hurt her campaign, there was so much other stuff.
Tracie: I actually feel like yeah there was sexism, yeah there was racism, it just sort of equaled the playing ground to me. To be honest, I feel like that sort of they canceled each other out. I mean, they were both present but they were there and they both had to deal with that situation. But I really don't think that Hillary lost because of sexism. And I say that totally as a card-carrying feminist.
Lizz: Right.
Tracie: And I think that she lost for other reasons. And there could be other retarded reasons, too, like Joel Madden supports Obama or whatever.
Moe: I didn't know that!
Tracie: Yeah, he's really into him.
Moe: What about Nicole?
Tracie: They're a team.
Moe: Were they in the commercial?
Tracie: The will.i.am video?
Moe: I don't know, have they been in any commercials?
Tracie: They wore a T-shirt.
Moe: Ooh.
Tracie: To Coachella, I believe.
Moe: To Coachella? Well, that's public. That's official.
Lizz: I don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
________________

Q/A starts

Q: Do you consider yourselves feminists? Why or why not?
Tracie: Yes, totally.
Moe: Um, sure. I mean, yeah, now I guess. I guess so. I mean, I don't even know what it means. I mean, I'm a girl. I think that women are obviously better than men.
Tracie: That's it, sometimes I feel like like a female supremacist
Moe: I'm a female supremacist.
Lizz: So you're female supremacists.
Tracie: Sometimes I feel like that.
Moe: In a way, yeah. But I don't want to get that... I don't want to make any men out there thing "Well, I don't want to fuck that girl," because, obviously...
Lizz: Oh, trust me, you can say you're a feminist, they'll fuck a tree. If you think men are going to feel cock-blocked because you are a feminist.
Tracie: I think guys will have sex with whatever...
Moe: I'm not really a female supremacist.
Tracie: ... and it doesn't matter.
Moe: That's true, that's true.
Tracie: I feel like a lot of women don't identify with feminism because they are afraid of these different definitions that certain feminists apply to it and I don't think that people understand how much fluidity there is to that term and that it's not this monolithic thing that it means this and this and this and this. It really just means that both men and women are both human and that they're equal and that we can all have different... I actually liken it to Christianity in which there is one basic belief and a million different splinters.
Lizz: Yeah, that's a really good point.
Tracie: So, yeah, of course I identify as a feminist. I have my own beliefs that are totally different than what some other feminists and it's like, you know,
Lizz: Yeah, I think people and I think that's a problem and, yeah, i think it's sort of the loudest voice wins as this sort of overarching definition of what it means
Tracie: I don't really think... I mean, I am sort of influenced by Riot Grrrl and that kind of thing and they are all like, "We need action, we need unity" blah blah blah, and, like, yeah, sure, whatever, but, you know, we have the vote and we have that kind of shit, we do need...
Lizz: That money thing is a long way
Moe: Money, we need to make more money.
Lizz: Yeah.
Tracie: I do think that there are...
Moe: We also need the government to subsidize tampons, I mean, for God's sake.
Tracie: Yeah, for real, if guys got periods you know that shit would be subsidized.
Moe: Seriously!
Tracie: Not government cheese, government tampons!
Moe: And birth control.
Lizz: And breast cancer screenings. And that stuff.
Moe: Even though I don't really want it.
Lizz: Yeah, I know. It's true. Government-funded tampons, I'm all for it.
Moe: The world, it's not...
Lizz: Socialized medicine.
Moe: Yes, exactly! So I'm a socialist, actually.
Lizz: Ok, so you're a socialist female supremacist. I like it.
Moe: No, I'm actually more of a humanist. I wouldn't say I'm a female supremacist, there are some dudes who are cool, too. I don't want to give them short shrift because they're genetically maybe inferior in some ways.
Lizz: It's better that you don't repeat that you think they're genetically inferior part. That is more going to prevent you from getting laid then calling yourself a feminist.
Tracie: They've kind of been saying that forever, though, so...
Lizz: Well, they say that to get laid. They don't think they're inferior.
Tracie: Yeah, they think they're superior, exactly.
Lizz: And then we tune that out because they're not because they'll fuck anything. Anyone who fucks anything is not superior. If you have no choosiness about it. It's general rule of thumb. I'm not wrong.

Q: [Moe's WaPo article; Question about whether "old guard" feminists read Jezebel.]
Tracie: [Gloria Steinem] doesn't know what the Internet is, she's like a dinosaur.
Moe: Linda Hirshman...
Q: No, really have you heard from the old guard at all about the blog and, if so, what?
Lizz: She's a dinosaur that has allowed you to get up here and say what you're saying.
Moe: Well, Molly Johnfast [sp.?] is a fan, like, on behalf of her mom but...
Tracie: I totally respect Gloria Steinem, I have an autographed copy of Bust Magazine that I used to work at with Gloria Steinem on the cover, but she's a very older woman and I don't think she looks at the Internet because I know a woman who worked for her before and I don't think she has any idea what Jezebel is or any of that.
Moe: Well, the person I was rebutting in that thing was Linda Hirshman who's kind of like an old guard feminist and she wrote a book and then she wrote on Huffington Post rebutting me and her rebuttal of me was really retarded, if I may say so. She's like, "Yeah, the bloggers have an emotional response," and then she took... well, you know, whatever, she can do what she wants. She's very easy to rebut because she was like, "I'm a white middle-class feminist and I think that the white middle-class feminists need to look out for themselves and stop worrying about other groups." I just thought that was ridiculous.
Lizz: I don't know what that means. That's like whenever there are people from the HRC on the street and they're like, "Do you believe in gay rights?" And I'm like "Your organization doesn't have gay rights in the title." Like, if you're for gay rights that your organization should say gay rights in the title. And your for human rights and you voted for Canada to vote for the war and against women's issues and I hate that. Like identify for what you are. It bugs me. It's like you have to look outside yourself, you know, you're called the Human Rights Campaign and you're a gay rights organization and you don't have gay in the title, why don't you, it fucking freaks me out. I just think it's bizarre. Yeah, but, so, the old guard...
Moe: So, we haven't heard, I don't think we've heard a lot from the old guard, I've heard a little bit.
Tracie: I think it has to do with our medium, to be honest. I think it has to do with the fact that... I mean, my mom is 55 or something and she barely knows how to work the Internet.
Lizz: Grandma!
Tracie: She really doesn't...
Moe: My mom doesn't read it, doesn't want to read it, doesn't want to know.
Lizz: But they know it exists. My mom's 86 and she's on the Internet. Sadly, she just forwards me emails from other old people, but... She is on the Internet.
Tracie: My mom forwards emails and stuff but she doesn't... she'll look at Jezebel because she knows that address, that I work there and stuff, but she doesn't know how to work the video player. Which is good.
Moe: So she doesn't watch Pot Psychology.
Tracie: Right. So, I don't know, I really do feel like a lot of the old... that that's part of the reason we haven't heard a lot from older feminists. Maybe they aren't as in tune with blogs. Maybe, yeah, they know how to work Google and they know how to read you know, whatever, CNN.com, but maybe they don't understand the concept of a blog or whatever. Because I know young people...
Moe: Even if they understand the concept they're not going to necessarily know about Jezebel because it's just not... it's not like their peers or into it.
Lizz: But I think they would like to know what young feminists are doing or thinking.
Moe: No, no, no, when I wrote this thing for the Post, I got so many emails, oh, shit, I need to go reply to them because they were, like, most of them were really nice. And there were so many people that were like, I'm 71, I'm 73, thank you for saying this. And it was mostly just because I was like, basically, the whole message of the thing that I wrote was like, fuck upper middle class white feminists who only care about themselves. Let's think about somebody else. Because I don't feel oppressed. I definitely, yeah, like Nancy Pelosi I experience sexism all the time, I hate the fucking boys club, I have some problems with the way that... the patriarchy. But, seriously, am I the most oppressed group? Fuck no.
Lizz: But there's a reason you're not. There's a reason you're not. And there's women like Gloria Steinem who...
Moe: Because I'm American, because I grew up with a lot of cultural capital, I'm relatively educated and I'm here. I have a lot of advantages. The rest of the world...
Lizz: But 40 years ago you wouldn't have had one of those advantages. You wouldn't've had one of them.
Moe: No, it's true. But I do now! I do now! And that's the only thing that really matters.
Lizz: And you do now, and I thing that the problems, the problem that I feel so much about the world in general is that people do not have a sense of history. And that's why we have wars. And that's why we elect douchebags like George Bush. And if we don't really recognize the history of when we had nothing and that this show would never exist 4 years ago, I think it's a real danger to moving forward and to being able to have the life you have, it's awesome.
Moe: But another thing that's important to remember is that we have wars in this country because we don't remember history. Other people in other countries have wars because they remember history too well.
Lizz: Yeah, what does that mean?
Moe: Because they have stupid ethnic strife that they can drum up at any moment.
Lizz: But just like Reverend Wright? Look at the the country we live in! Look at what we drum up.
Moe: No, exactly.
Lizz: So it's not an us versus them.
Moe: If you live in, if you live for the future, you're in a better place. I'm not saying I don't respect the people who came before me or really who made it possible for me to live the way that I do. But getting hung up on their battles and getting hung up on their ... getting hung up every time a newscaster says something sexist about Hillary Clinton... yeah, I could spend a lot of time being mad about that shit. But I just don't think that it's productive.
Lizz: Right.
Moe: And I kind of think that that's the only way to sort of move forward.
Lizz: But I think the bigger issue... to me, a woman who says that since Hillary's not in I'm voting for McCain is a conversation to have because it's completely ridiculous, it just makes no sense and those people shouldn't even be speaking.
Moe: But Fox News has totally made a market out of those people.
Lizz: But, I mean, I just think historically we're very lucky and to negate all of it, there are important things to think about and to keep it local I think is a big thing. Because I think when you start taking big issues -- and I am going to go back to rape -- like rape and like other things and you put it on other oppressed regimes, Muslim regimes, that kind of thing, it says it's not happening here and it's happening here a lot. Rape is happening in the United States all the fucking time. And it doesn't have anything to do with sexual freedom, it has to do with how fucked up our society is.
Moe: No, it's totally true. No, I agree with you fully on that. I'll tell you guys a story actually, very briefly. I was just in London,and I talked to a girl who was working for CNBC in London but she worked for the Duke student newspaper a few years ago and she covered the Duke rape, alleged rape, scandal. And she said, "We were basically driving the media when we came here." And I remember, I was a pretty ambitious college journalist and if a big story comes to your town you own it, and everyone else just wants to know what you have to say. So she said, "Basically, I drove the media, and I was driven by my editor and my editor had been raped by a Duke lacrosse player." Well, duh. And she's like, "And the thing that didn't occur to me it that those two guys, they didn't really need to rape a stripper. They could rape whatever sorority girl they wanted." And I was like, "That is so damn true." Having been date raped a few times, you know. Like, that's it. And that's the problem. I remember, I guess, like, the third guy I ever had sex with date raped me. I got really mad at him. But I wasn't going to, like, fucking turn him into the police...
Lizz: Why not?
Moe: ... or fucking go through shit.
Lizz: But see that's the problem. Why not? I mean, I just am curious.
Moe: Well, it was a load of trouble and I, you know, I had better things to do, like drinking more [wry laugh]. And I just didn't... I actually just wanted to believe that he was a better guy.
Lizz: But do you understand, and I just have to say this, and you're going to...
Moe: And at the time I was 19, so
Lizz: Right, but you're going to get mad at me. Because... Here's where the conflict comes for me. When you talk about the older feminist women who only think about themselves, by not bringing somebody who raped you to justice, that man gets to go out and rape somebody else. So you were only thinking about yourself.
Moe: No, no, no, no. At the time, I mean, I remember asking him, I was like, "Why did you do that to me?" Because I remember the fact that he had hooked up, he was a big player, he had hooked up with this girl in my hall and this girl was a renowned slut. And I was not, you know, I was a little punk rock or whatever, but I was not somebody who was known, I didn't think at the time, to be easy, even though I was, because I'm obviously easy. But, anyway, so I was like, "Seriously, I know you didn't have sex with Michelle, why did you think it was ok after I said no 11 times." I fucking counted them but I was passing out. And he was like, "I just didn't think you thought sex was a big deal." And at the time I was like, "Yeah, I don't think it's that big a deal." But what the fuck? And that's what's so fucked up. It's like, yeah, he basically told me that he wouldn't do it to somebody else, he just thought I was super-slutty. Which I was mad about. But I really didn't think that this guy -- if you had seen this guy -- I really didn't think, he was, like, a barista, I don't know, like, whatever, I didn't think he was going to go out and rape again.
Lizz: Sure he would! He raped you because you were too drunk to defend yourself. That guy's fucking looking for drunk women.
Moe: No, but, I was, like, 19 and I'd fucked two other guys before in my life. So I didn't really know how the world worked. Now I'd be different. I recently saw a girl that he had -- Michelle, the girl from college -- and she told me that he was still a sleazebag basically. And I was like, "Wow, that guy is still a sleazebag, huh?" Seriously, it took me by surprise. I was like, I really wanted to think that after I chewed him out that that guy would stop thinking that it was just okay for him to stick his dick in some girl's pussy.
Lizz: I think that's where your mistake was.
Moe: Yeah, clearly, no it obviously was. And I was young. And I apologize, I wanted to tell.
Lizz: Let's get him.
Moe: Yeah, fuck that guy. John Si...
Lizz: Vigilante
Moe: Yeah. He's apparently a doctor which is the best part.
Lizz: Alright, so, okay, we have to go, really quick, let's bring this up to a, back to a good place.
Moe: Sorry, that was, like, really heavy.
Lizz: Yeah, that was intense. But, you know what, good. Okay. Nothing wrong with that.
Tracie: I really hate talking about rape, honestly. I mean, I know that it's a thing, I know it's real, and this one [points to Moe], but, like, I have to honestly say that, like, I know that it happens to girls who are smart who know what they're doing, and blah blah blah, but I have never, ever been in that situation and I have had lots and lot and lots of sex with a lot of people in my life. And I just, um, maybe, it's about education or maybe it's about...
Lizz: Maybe you're lucky. I mean, I have to say, you gotta like address the fact that you're fucking lucky.
Tracie: I think, I think it has to do with the fact that I'm like I'm smart when I, like, see my, I've taken self-defense... No, don't hiss. When I see myself in a situation that's not cool. I mean, I don't, I get wasted and stuff, sure, I mean, I'm kind of drunk now, but, like, when I see myself in a situation where I'm at risk, I'm out. I've never hung around with frat guys.
Moe: Yeah, but it's like that Holocaust poem...
Tracie: I mean, I'm not saying that just because I'm pro-active in my own safety that other girls suck because they're not.
Lizz: No, I think... Wait, wait, wait, hold on...
Moe: One thing that I would say about this particular guy, and then I want to be done with it...This guy I always felt safe around him, even after he date raped me, I always wanted to be like, "Oh, you should know that you did the wrong thing..."
Lizz: You're digging yourself into a huge whole darling, really, I gotta be honest, you were not safe with him, he raped you. So that, I can't let the story go on any more.
Moe: No, no, no, all I'm saying is that he didn't seem like the guy who was a date rapist.
Lizz: But they never... you know what, but I don't know what the stigma of that is, that's the whole thing. That like trying to define...
Moe: I don't know, guys that seem like date rapists... Paul Janka
Lizz: Who isn't? I seem like a date rapist. You know, the bottom line is that you can't, like, identify where latent rage and anger and all that is, it doesn't have a look, it doesn't have a style, it doesn't have any of that.
Moe: But it's also ridiculous to be like, you can never know and you have to be on guard at all times, it's like the War on Terror.
Lizz: No, it isn't, it's not the War on Terror. 'Cause what's different is is that sex is an individual thing and the way that you know how to do things is individual for you. You are a lucky woman that you've never been raped, bless your heart. It's awesome. You maybe are intuitively really great. But a lot of people aren't. And when a blanket message gets out in the world that it's ok to have this one kind of amazing lifestyle because it's always going to be safe for everyone because you've been really fortunate enough not to experience that guy, I just think, I just think there's some kind of middle ground to be had about how to be this really free sexual being and how to not... to realize that we don't live in a world that makes that completely safe to be that person.
Tracie: Anyone that would emulate someone else is not with it completely.
Lizz: Hello! We have a fucking $75 bazillion dollar television budget that is based on emulation. Like what are you talking about?
Moe: The entire economy is based on emulation.
Lizz: Your whole blog is based on people emulating you. Are you nuts?
Trace: I don't think that anyone should emulate me.
Lizz: Yes, well they do! Regardless of whether you think they should! That's like when football players say, "I'm not a role model." They are and you are. You're a de facto role models.
Tracie: I think that saying that women are going to do whatever they see on television or what they read or whatever is undermining women's intelligence to make their own decisions. And I feel like women are smart enough to say, "Oh, this situations' not right for me, and this isn't right for me, and this lifestyle's not ok for me."
Lizz: Look how many Ugg boots were purchased. Fucking case in point.
Tracie: And I didn't buy a single pair. Not one.
Lizz: But I'm just saying, you know.
Moe: That's the truth. I didn't buy one either. I don't really have any shoes.

Comments

[Brooke]

Well, I didn't see what was so terrible about what you said. I feel sorry for Moe that she kinda makes excuses for the guy who raped her.

[Fake Name]

So I finally saw the entire video and it makes the whole hoopla seem like a HUGE media (Lizz) creation. I expected to see you guys slurring while calling rape victims "nappy-headed hoes" based off the comments on HuffPo, Jezebel, Jess, and other blogs. Some of the jokes fell flat, but they weren't mean spirited. Maybe I'm just giving you the benefit of the doubt b/c I've read your stuff, but it wasn't nearly as bad as advertised.

[Fake Name]

@Slut Machine

Did you ever comment about this over on Jezebel? The thread was so huge, I never got through all the comments.

[beatty]

Booooring. Are we still on this?

Putting it into "context" doesn't really help the few things that were said that were horribly out of line.

But who cares, you can say what you want.... lets just not dwell. It's o-v-e-r.

[ralph]

Reading this, it is hard to believe you are even slightly famous.

We clearly have no standards.

[J]

Wait...THIS is what people were getting so frigging upset about?!
God, people take themselves way too seriously.

[slut machine]

no, i didn't comment about it because i wasn't really allowed to. and because i didn't want to get distracted during the work day and get sucked into a comment war. i'm not still focusing on this, but i'm kinda pissed that lizz took EVERYTHING that we said out of context and sensationalized it to promote her shitty theater show. she's kinda the rapist in the situation, in that she plied us with booze and then took advantage of us. especially, when during the interview, she made comments like this one:

"When we were in college, we used to fuck guys to help us move. The night before moving, we would go out and get drunk, and then we’d fuck guys, and then the next morning we’d be like, ‘Oh, we’re moving, and we just fucked you,’ and they always helped!"

i remember being like, "what the fuck is this lady talking about?" but i politely laughed, because i was on her show and all.

[k]

Lizz: You could get raped.
Tracie: But I wouldn't.
Moe: That's happened, too, but you live through that, you know.
Lizz: Sometimes you don't.
Moe: I mean, that's true if they have weapons.
Tracie: But when I bring someone home, I want to fuck them, I'm not going to bring someone home and be like, "No, not tonight."
Hunh. I'm pretty confused about this part:
Lizz: Wait, wait, hold on a second, that's just not how rape works, though. If you bring a guy home and want to fuck him and he goes, "Guess what, I'm a psycho and now that I'm licking your face I want to kill you."

What does that have to do with rape? Sounds to me like she's describing murder, which is a bit different, yes? Bringing a guy home who you want to fuck who then turns out to be a murderer is a little different than a "rapist", when he was going to get laid anyway. WTF, Lizz.

[kdiddy]

this is the first time that I've actually had a good look at the conversation (haven't had a good time to watch the video). I'm honestly now quite flabbergasted that you and Moe were attacked the way you were. perhaps your biggest crimes were not being sober (but then how were you to know that you would need to be on your best, most sober feminist game?), you weren't dutifully reverent (fuck that), and you spoke casually (gasp!). and honestly, shame on Lizz for victim-blaming Moe the way she did. it really seems to go against a lot of what she said and purports to believe.
all this is to say that I think I get where you're coming from and I'm sorry that you two got so lambasted. It sucks. and also, you're awesome. you both make a lot of really excellent points. all of this pearl-clutching needs to stop.

[lempha]

i am so confused right now. how was that a media shitstorm? cause, you know, i found it interesting, intriguing, honest. i don't know what, exactly, lizz was expecting if not that. and the jokes /were/ funny.

[Seyour]

For such a strong ballsy woman you play victim an awful lot.

Take a little responsiblity for your back-firing jokes and your shallow grasp of feminisim.

It's not hateration, its education.

You ultimately rock but would do so harder if you actually owned your actions and the fallout that ocassionally ensues from time to time. The 'they just don't get me' defence is the reserve of whiny teenagers. A bad ass like yourself need not apply that particular ointment.

[ameobalike]

I'm in the same boat as kdiddy... I followed the drama on Jezebel but couldn't watch the video 'cause I do all my internet surfing at work. This is my first exposure to what actually went down and I have to say, WTF? It's almost like people blew up at you because they'd been looking for a reason to all along. You guys are way better spoken than I imagined was the case given the dramatic way in which it was edited down/people were attacking you. I really don't see anything wrong with what was said on your end.

[ameobalike]

As for people who say she needs to own up to her actions... what actions are you talking about? Speaking openly and candidly? Sharing her opinions? Isn't that why we read this blog? Isn't that why you'd want to go see her speak in person? Seems like she owns up to it pretty well.

[Lizzie]

I didnt think this was a big deal then or now. Lizz exploiting it for her own gain was par for the course because of how much free self promotion it bought her. So whatever to that. My only WTF moment came with the comment explosion on Jezebel where people were like "you didnt give us a forum to discuss this so what did you think would happen. we need to heal!" and then it devolved from there to the point where people were saying things to the effect of "Tracie thinks she is so cool because she has bangs." I just could not wrap my mind around how people could possibly care so much about this. I hope it didnt get you down too much.

[youguysarefeminists?]

I'm glad to see that you finally put this whole transcript up. I think a lot of people only saw the unflattering edits and read isolated quotes. Did you guys come off like Rhodes Scholars? No. But did you deserve to be crucified by Lizz Cunstead and her self righteous feminist legions? No. At the very least I guess you could consider it flattering that Lizz thought she could use you and Moe to jump start her career that's sagging like her tits.

[Amy]

"The thing that I can do is I can just write... I only write what I know. That's what I do best. And the only thing that I can do is write about my experiences and if women can relate to that, then I feel like that's great and they... and we can all share those experiences. But I feel like in the same way that, like, Moe knows shit about China, I don't know shit about China. I wouldn't write about that. I don't know shit about rape, and so I don't really want to write about that because, like, in a way that I might be like "This is how you protect yourself," like, I've taken self-defense courses and stuff and that's never been something that I've had to encounter, so, I feel like I really write from my own experiences, and so that's really all I can go by. As far as writing about the truth and whatever."

That part stuck out to me from the beginning. Just keep writing your truth, Tracie, and this shitstorm will blow over. I still don't see what you or Moe did wrong; in fact, I thought exactly what you did about Lizz's position in this situation being parallel to that of a rapist. I actually commented to your last post suggesting that, expecting people to flip their shit. Because you know what? No matter what you say about rape-- unless it's the obvious "well, rape is horrible" which we can all pretty much agree with--someone is going to flip their shit.

But yeah... keep writing, keep sharing with us. Don't let the bullshit get you down. You've always been so candid about everything on this blog and on Jezebel, and that is why so many people love your writing. I hope you will get back to sharing your experiences with us soon. (The first time I came upon this blog, I was like, "Wow! She actually addresses bleeding on the sheets! She doesn't act like it's some kind of cardinal sin, either! I like this woman!")

Stay who you are. You don't need to defend yourself any further. You didn't do anything wrong.

[Sammi]

*This* is why everyone was freaking out?

The only thing in the conversation that really offended me was L's implication that adult women need to model themselves after someone. I didn't buy Uggs when they were trendy and I'm not going to do ecstasy or two dudes at once just because I love your blog.

Forget the haters and don't (don't don't!) start getting mousy about what you say. Your candidness is what makes you so badass. Your shamelessness is contagious - and if women need anything, it's to lose their shame so they can (Oh God, so corny) just be themselves.

("Yeah, I have weird hair on my nipples. What of it?")

Mad hearts!

[tb]

I have to agree that I can't believe this is what people got their panties in a bunch about.

If anything they should be pissed that you had a lame interviewer who contradicted herself (equating sexual freedom with more rape and then clarifying that that was not what she meant)

[sam]

yeah, um, no way dude. that lizz winstead is a predator. and kind of a nut. party foul.

[kira]

I tried to watch the whole video and couldn't, it was just too painfully awkward.

You and Moe were so drunk as to be incomprehensible (which doesn't come though in the transcript).

Regardless of what you said, how you said it was completely unprofessional. I suggest all of the commenters who've said "ooh, I never actually bothered to watch the interview in question, it's TOTALLY not that bad!" go check out the video.

Comedy or not, showing up to speak somewhere (especially if people are paying to here you) plastered is immature. Adults own up to their actions. They don't try to justify them by whining about how their internet went out or how they are trying to quit smoking or how they got drunk (but it somehow wasn't their fault?!).

You and Moe acted like bratty 15 year old girls who've just had their first frat party beer. It's not cute when you're 15, and it isn't cute when you're 30.

You should stop whining about how Lizz was "kinda the rapist in the situation," apologize for everyone who paid to see your drunk ass, and be happy you still have your job.

[slut machine]

hey kira, why don't you shut the fuck up? how fucking DARE you say that i came off bad because i was drunk? that's like finding fault with me because i was "unladylike." i don't think i misrepresented myself at all. i thought i was going there to drunkenly (as per the title of the show, and the request of the producers who were TELLING us to get loaded before hand, making sure we were double fisting for a full hour before we went on) discuss tyra banks. and then it turned into this. i am not apologetic of anything i said or how i acted. i just want to be as honest as possible in everything that i do. and i felt like a lot of dishonest shit went down with all of this, mostly on winstead's part. especially after she sought me out right after the show, smiled in my face, shook my hand, and told me i was great.

[kira]

If you want to be as honest as possible, then you should just post the actual video.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3878564552149113212&hl=en

[JES]

The part about the Ugg boots at the end is the best.

Also, fuck Lizz for making Moe feel like a bad person for not reporting her rape. She just blamed Moe for other girls getting raped. She actually put the onus of those girls getting raped on Moe instead of where it belong (i.e. on the rapist). HOW THE FUCK IS THAT OKAY?

"Lizz: I think that's where your mistake was."
\
What? what mistake? Moe didn't make a mistake, Moe was raped, and had the only authentic experience she could have. She didn't "make a mistake". SO FUCKED UP.

Lizz's most dread conversation

Lizz: "Hi, I'm Lizz, and I created THE DAILY SHOW."

Person: "OMG! I love that show! What is Jon Stewart like?"

Lizz: (icily) "No I left before Stewart came on the show.

Person: Oh....ah. So what, uh, is uh, that guy, what's his name? What's he like? See I don't know because I never watched the show before Stewart because it WASN'T FUNNY.

[kat]

i think that giggling should be written into the transcript. it might clear things up just a tad. all in all, the whole concept of this show was to be comedic, and the audience laughed quite a bit, so i'm missing the whole freak-out somewhere.

[Caitlin]

Kira - 1) I WISH I could be this intelligent drunk and 2) I wish I was that intelligent at 15. "Just because I am a woman with a vagina I am not automatically classified as a potential rape victim." - this is SO true, and I think it is an essential idea that got fully pushed aside.

MOREOVER - What the fuck is up with Lizz's rant about the HRC needing to clarify that they support gay rights? What does she think Human Rights SHOULD mean? I guess there's a slight possibility she was being ironic, but if she wasn't that was one load of bullshit drivel.

[Jesus, Narcissism.]

you bolded your own statements.

[slut machine]

yeah, on my own fucking website.

[mariaaaaa]

"Moe: No offense to the retards."

HAHAHAHAHA! For some reason that line made me laugh.

"Lizz: That was your mistake"

That line made me gasp. Way to blame a 19 year old. That's so understanding of you.

As someone who will be seeing the sands of my thirties run out soon, I take umbrage at the assumption that the olds can't drive in the internets! Don't assume sister! (Said from someone who refuses to Facebook, Twitter, etc. and who realizes her obsolence is indeed possibly imminent.) (Is obsolence even a word?)

[schlegs84]

Kira,

1) Everything that SM said.
2) What is more like a 15 year old girl? Getting drunk before a comedy show and having it go haywire or going to someone's blog to write catty comments about them?

Your mind is clearly made up, why are you still here? Go somewhere else! Last I checked people don't come to a site titled "One D at a Time" for lectures on sobriety and professionalism.

[kira]

schlegs84-

Because I used to like SM. I thought she was witty and funny and I consistently enjoyed reading her stuff here and on Jezebel.

That said, I thought she and Moe fucked up on Shoot the Messenger. I didn't say anything about it, 'cause, shit, everyone has bad days and fucks up.

However, it's been more than a week and SM keeps making excuses for her behavior and blaming the producers and Lizz and talking shit.

So yeah, I guess it was wrong of me to say that. Shit, I'd better go fuck myself, or something, for having an opinion on someones blog. I didn't know that these comments were only for the people who thing SM is perfect. My mistake.

[kira]

thing=think

[blergh]

This dead horse. Is a bloody red pulp.

[Chelsie]

This blog used to be interesting. What happened? For the love of God, talk about something else. We get it. You feel "exploited". Move on or stop writing.

[mc]

Even from the very beginning, when I read Winstead's original page about how 'disappointed' she was in you&Moe, it all seemed so suspicious. The idea that you guys are writing as role models, even when it first was suggested, just seemed ridiculous--are women supposed to be so desperate for guidance that they will listen to someone on the internet before they examine their own inclinations&impulses? Feminism, to me, is about making choices based on your wants, desires, and needs rather than what society expects of you as a woman--to, for example, be free from being guilted into becoming a 'compassionate caregiver' just because we are female. You're an individual before you're female, ideally. And it just seems like Winstead wants to paint women as this large, sweeping group of vulnerable sheep who will buy uggs and turn every media personality into a role model. She wants women to be female before they are individuals, and then to be guided (as a group) into some sort of safer, utopian world by constantly being vigilant and scared. I think it is a little hypocritical for her to claim that you are wrong for not respecting the old guard, but then ALSO wrong for taking full advantage of increased sexual freedom. I just don't think we should hold anyone to our personal standards; give people information and let them make their own choices and then support them in those decisions. You can't provide freedom and then back out & revoke it when you don't like the decisions freed people make. And I think your blog and Jezebel should be--and mostly are--about just telling the truth, owning your flaws, and making it a little easier for the private self and public self to match up. Doing away with shame and self-hatred and repression is the only way to counteract these fucked up social problems. I really believe this. If we weren't so fucking puritanical, if we didn't try so hard to get rid of the impulses we all have because of human nature, then we could be happy with who we are, and we wouldn't want to fucking change everyone around us all the time so that we all fit this image of what a 'better' humanity would look like. You can't make people better. You can't get rid of abortion. You have to be realistic, and work with what we have--which is human nature. So people should stop feeling bad about their 'dirty' impulses and just live them publicly. And you do that, and I respect that so much. You make it easier for other people to stop hating themselves so much for their impulses and decisions--which society tells them are so dirty and wanton and 'wrong,' even though many, many people have the desires.

[BEANER]

"she plied us with booze and then took advantage of us." -SM

i thought you liked that-? or is it just not convenient here?

[blah]

"You and Moe were so drunk as to be incomprehensible (which doesn't come though in the transcript)."
yeah, if by incomprehensible you mean interrupted by interviewer when attempting to a. answer said interviewer's questions b. finish a thought previously interrupted by interviewer c. reiterate comment horribly misinterpreted by interviewer...

"Regardless of what you said, how you said it was completely unprofessional."
sounds like my ex-boyfriend's reasoning. "Well maybe you did defend what you believe in, but I don't like your shoes"

[Alyssa]

How sick that Lizz would attempt to berate Moe for not reporting her rape! That shit is personal. I don't know the circumstances of Moe's date rape, but having just spent four years at a university in which the frat culture made it humiliating and difficult for rape victims to come out, I am seriously appalled. It sickens me how callous Lizz could be, not only judging another woman's course of action post-rape, but actually blaming her for future rapes--may as well blame her for her own rape, Lizz, because of looks/dress/etc.

That said, stay strong Tracie, and keep on doing your thing. You're the only reason I stop by Jezebel anymore.

[randomvoyeur]

"Your mind is clearly made up, why are you still here? Go somewhere else! Last I checked people don't come to a site titled "One D at a Time" for lectures on sobriety and professionalism."

Ex-fuckin-actly. Well put

[Hannah]

Shame on Lizz, and shame on anyone that makes the argument that you're a role model and should behave as such. While I do think that you're an inspiring person, you don't dictate my morals for me. Some of the fun of being a reader here is getting to see a lifestyle that I can't quite live out myself.

And honestly? You were funny. Yes, maybe I did cringe when I heard the rape talk, but in the same way I do when I hear "dead baby" jokes. It's funny because it hits a nerve.

We all know you don't advocate rape. We all know you don't blame women for it. Can we please get past this?

You were drunk. Were I held accountable for every drunken rant I've spewed... it wouldn't be pretty.

[JewBoy]

Life is not black and white. Blame, regret, and remorse are spread among many, but who will step up? SM, time to STEP UP. Will you - CAN you admit SOME remorse, apologize for YOUR (not ALL) sh*t in this storm and be the bigger fuckin person. Passing it ALL off makes you seem FIVE years old, not fifteen.

You can't say no to a producer who offers you a drink or five? what kind of a woman are you? STEP UP

But hell, at least there's something to read on here again!

[Sara]

It is your website so you can bold whatever you please.

It's pretty clear that Lizz Winstead is a nasty bitch. The kind of "feminist" that hates women. They are the WORST and leave with such an icky feeling after you are subjected to their hostile undertones without understanding if you're picking up on something, if they're crazy, or if you're crazy because those type of women will always find something to throw back in your face. Make it seem like you started it, when they are the ones that manipulated the shit-storm in the first place. That is abusive behavior; Dare I say borderline emotional-gasp-date rape. You think you can trust someone, and they turn around and betray you to the entire internet. I don't blame you for being upset. I would be.

Keep on sister. You're hot.

[erik]

hahaha captain save a ho. that is my new away message, replacing paula abdul's i was a lakers girl, quietly making demo tapes. honestly, ditto, to what everyone else is saying: keep on. lizz sounded more hostile than not, and i only read the first half.

[erik]

hahaha captain save a ho. that is my new away message, replacing paula abdul's i was a lakers girl, quietly making demo tapes. honestly, ditto, to what everyone else is saying: keep on. lizz sounded more hostile than not, and i only read the first half.

[red_sparkle]

What I don't get about this Kira girl is why she thinks she is the SM police. Seriously? Like, boo hoo, you some how hurt her feelings? Why is this so personal? Common girlfriend, enroll yourself in a community College somewhere and get a life. I'd like to know who died and left Ki-Ki in charge of the internet? I'm glad I am all the way over here in Seattle with Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos. Sheesh. Sounds like this girl is seriously bitter for some apparent reason. Probably a) a bad dye job/over sized forehead or b) her boyfriend dumped her for a queen and she secretly hates gays. Either way, I keep reading her comments and thinking if I had a cock I wouldn't mind leaving a nice imprint on the side of her forehead or for that matter, trick her into choking on it.

And just for the record, I never comment on blogs, BUT today I sent my father's real estate agent (and I don't speak to my father) the following TEXT on accident: "My period is over so lets get drunk and screw." Thinking it was my husband, but I was in such a hurry I typed the wrong name into my blackberry. Oh well. Everyone makes mistakes, all women, no matter how high up or how much money they make. Now whether or not you think this whole thing is a mistake, well that's your right to interpret. But, I seriously think anyone who didn't get the satire of the most recent New Yorker isn't going to understand what goes behind the scenes in any given situation and therefore it is useless to think they can infer what's going on in this situation.

Anywayz...POT Psychology is the only way to solve problems. Lets send Lizzie some Yukon "Gold" Brownies before her next show and see how she makes out. I'll make sure their addressed from Microsoft so she actually eats them. =]

[Kate]

Tracie, I was sort of reluctant to get into this whole things, and I absolutely couldn't watch the video cause Moe was too drunk and Lizz's voice makes me want to claw my eyes out... plus, I kind of feel like my interest in your goings on is a little weird (but that's mostly because I think your friends and my friends combined would be like the new Team America) and that I'd get all disappointed in you or whatever if there was any actual shit to get bummed out over...

ANYWAY, I'm so glad you posted this transcript because
what. the. fuck.
Lizz says just as much questionable shit!

And THIS:
"I don't know what that means. That's like whenever there are people from the HRC on the street and they're like, "Do you believe in gay rights? And I'm like "Your organization doesn't have gay rights in the title." Like, if you're for gay rights that your organization should say gay rights in the title. And your for human rights and you voted for Canada to vote for the war and against women's issues and I hate that. Like identify for what you are. It bugs me. It's like you have to look outside yourself, you know, you're called the Human Rights Campaign and you're a gay rights organization and you don't have gay in the title, why don't you, it fucking freaks me out. I just think it's bizarre. Yeah, but, so, the old guard..."

Comes out of nowhere! Woman is crazy. I mean, it wasn't the best interviwe ever and I wish Moe had made what I feel are the REALLY good, interesting points about date rape (the way men are socialized often being the greater factor in a lot of physically non-violent date rape, and such) but overall, you definitely painted a pretty decent picture of what I like about Jezebel and about you and Moe in particular.

Also, I understand why you keep posting here about it. You didn't really get the change to rebut all the CRAZY shit on Jezebel and here at least you can feel like you were able to complete a thought - unlike in the interview, ha ha.

I know you'll get past this gross debacle. Please please keep it up.

[T]

I can't believe THIS is what caused all that crap at Jezebel and with the Lizzie person. It was made to be way more scandalous or offensive or whatever it was supposed to be, when it is not at all. I agree with the person who thinks Lizzie just comes across as hostile, she seems so self-righteous. Like she has never made a mistake before, if you can even call Moe's date rape choice that. Ugh, there isn't a black and white answer to everything. I don't understand why she didn't grasp that.

Don't let the haters get you down SM. I look forward to all of your posts on Jezebel and this blog. Its your opinions and you should stick to them, or change them. It is your prerogative.

[Sparker_Pants]

I want to give Moe a hug.

I commend you for being as honest as possible, and I'm sorry you've had to deal with this whole ordeal- even if its "par for the course" when writing online as "everyone" claims, that doesn't make it any easier to deal with when it's happening to you, no matter the scale.

Chin up, hotstuff! (Also please enjoy the archaic use of the term "chin up!")

[the millionizer]

just a hug. lizz was totally out of line. not more i can say. i watched the video and she made me want to rip my ovaries out and stick them in my ears. you guys rocked.

[ramonaquimby]

"oooooooh how i miss/ substituting the conclusion to confrontation with a kiss ..."

i think the solution to this whole shitstorm is for you to make out more. i think what you need now is a good old fashion sex scandal to help wash out the bad taste of moldy feminisms this witch hunt (slut hunt?) must have left in your mouth.

some of these folks are rabid, yo.

[Ventura]

I guess my reaction is What is your point here Tracie? Sure you were ambushed, but more to the point, you were completely taken advantage of -- and yeah it is a kind of an assault. Lizz is using you to generate her own buzz. I really doubt she gives a flying fuck about whether you or Moe were or weren't raped or whether you or Moe are "suitable" role models to young women today. She needs to make herself relevant. It's kind of like the fat, ugly girl in school who comes up to the cool kids, who've never really noticed her at all and bear her no ill will, actually, and starts screaming about how mean they are. She needs to be noticed and this is the only way she can figure out, by forcing herself into the coveted spotlight of others. So forget Lizz, she's not worth worrying about. But perhaps this is a good opportunity to sit back and decide what it is you really ARE trying to say with your dick schtick. You're not the first young woman to rebel by being sexually depraved. Hell, Madonna was the master of sexual provocation up until she became Grande Dame Madge and had to clean up her act because it gets kind of embarassing for women to be so sexually desperate after a certain age. People don't like to read about older wrinkly saggy-titted women having sex anyway. I hate to say it but your writing reminds me a lot of the Happy Hooker from the early 70s -- at least the shocking sexual aspects of it. So what, exactly, do you have to add to the ongoing discussion Tracie? Despite your cavalier attitude, it's obvious your writing is really important to you. You have a great voice and a decent talent. I believe you are a feminist, although I really don't believe that hypersexuality and alcoholism are particularly feminist, but whatevs, if that's your thing, it's your thing. I just wonder at the end of the day, what is your point going to be in all of this?